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Player killing and FFA zones.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Enkidu, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hello, my name is Enkidu, and I am a PK'er... scum of the earth second only to hackers, and cheaters. Every so often I happen to log back into WoW to play in the sandbox known as the Timeless Isle...well a sandbox for PK'ers.

    Now, the Timeless Isle works like a Free For All (FFA) zone where no one is safe...as a PK'er this is awesome. So I am here to ask, do you think WildStar will offer something along the lines of Timeless Isle, that in reality is a PvPvE FFA, or maybe go with the SWTOR route and go with something like Outlaws Den / Pylon area on Ilum?

    Or are such areas harmful for the community? If this is the case, may I ask why? Now I understand that "forced" PvP in PvE zones despite server type can be annoying, and while I only play on PvP / Rp-pvp servers, I also understand that the risk of being killed by players all throughout the leveling experience is not for everyone, to me it seems like a nice middle ground.

    Though, another aspect that seems to upset people, more so on RP servers I have found, killing your fellow faction mates. While, I understand why one would get upset about it, what I do not understand is the rage that often follows. Though I will be lying if I said I do not enjoy reading forum posts / hate whispers regarding it.

    I apologize for the endless rambling, what are you feelings on a free for all pvp zone? Be it barren like outlaws den, or riddled with pve content like Timeless Isle, or do you feel as if such zones are only detrimental to the overall community. Which do you prefer and why?

    I do know they are considering PvP zones post launch, but this is more so for zones that offer a means of killing your faction as well.
     
  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    WildStar will have contested Area's in which you can attack the other faction as you please too.

    HOWEVER! WildStar will NOT have a zone specially made for PvP (Wintergrasp like at launch..
    And neither will it have something like the timeless isle if we look at the design decissions so far.

    I think we'll just get the ''normal'' area's and make our own little ''PvP area's'' inside those. Just how we used to do it in Vanilla WoW.
     
  3. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I know the will have zones where will be able to attack the other faction, I am more so asking what does the community feel about FFA zones that toss everything aside factions etc... and allow people to kill whomever within that zone. Like Outlaws Den, which was just a barren sub section of Tat no objectives just a little spot on that map akin to the arena in STV with the chest.

    I apologize if the point got lost in the shuffle of the rambling in the OP.
     
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Mayby 1....but no more tbh, I never liked them that much. I can't see what they are ''adding''.....well you can fight your faction....but i'm a lore-geek...so what is the lore explanation of fighting eachother?

    Over a treasure? Mechari vs Mechari over a treasure?.....noty....doesn't add up at all. It just doesn't please me on anything. But seeing as some people like it mayby add 1? For me eprsonally it can be 0.
     
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  5. Ippo

    Ippo New Cupcake

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    I remember in Vanilla WoW the Arena in Stranglethorn Vale was a pretty fun FFA for the chest so having something like that would be neat.
     
  6. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally I could live with one, and in reality anymore then one would detract from the point of it since it would spread out what I think is the small base of players that enjoy this type of killing ( same faction killing ) across different zones.

    In TOR I often got hit with the lore card a lot being as I am also an RP'er I understand that standpoint, but I am not a hardcore RP'er. I follow the lore when it comes to my back story, but I am not always in character. Though it is nice to see someone be open to the idea of maybe one, even if they do not personally like the idea.
     
  7. GoatSlayrr

    GoatSlayrr Well-Known Cupcake

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    I sure hope the devs at Carbine don't copy the FFA PvP idea from TI. It's fun on a PvP realm, but on a PvE realm it's just plain annoying and leads to non-stop <REDACTED>ing.

    On a PvP realm, you've got random groups of people banding together to watch each others backs for attacks from the enemy faction, and people who've used the FFA flag item, or banding together to pick fights with both other groups, and that's the kind of thing you'd expect with a bunch of PvPers all stuck together with little else to do besides farming "rare" spawns for pets and junk.

    But on a PvE realm, it's so different and just not fun. People are on that realm because most the time they want nothing to do with world PvP. And so they don't flag up, unless they've used the FFA thing because they want the rewards you can get from collecting kills, but since no one else wants to join in, they have to resort to trying to get people to accidentally attack them so they get flagged, then they kill them. And then general chat for the zone becomes an endless stream of people complaining about the handful of people with the FFA flag on messing with their fun.

    And there in lies my problem with most ideas for FFA PvP additions I've heard of. They might work well, or even great on one type of realm, but on the other they'd be at best, ignored, and at worst, actively negatively impacting the gameplay of people. To me, it just doesn't seem like a good fit for your more standard theme park MMO.
     
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  8. Lesh

    Lesh Cupcake

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    I like the idea of FFA PVP in a resource rich area. God knows how many times i wanted to kill my own faction lol
     
  9. Borz

    Borz Cupcake-About-Town

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    FFA 'arena' (area with no objectives at all, just one flagging everyone for FFA) is sandbox, place where players can organize their own group vs group or whatever form of FFA that comes to their mind, and there is never any harm in having one. Aside from maybe making it bigger than required, so there is plenty of space to add objectives.

    Areas with objectives also get incentives to pursue those objectives, and that bit is more case of "PvP only" rather than FFA, because when people have issues there it's not about their faction killing them, but getting killed at all. Incentives can be PvP related, "other"(vanity items, achievements, and so on), or mixed, indcluding PvE rewards. PvP-only is rarely a problem, but PvE-related rewards can cause issues. Rewards better than anything else make PvE progression require PvP, so are bad. "Weak" rewards are also bad as they don't serve their role as incentive. "Average" rewards might still cause issues, so better to avoid it at all.
    Other rewards are always good, despite still causing complains from people that want to get everything but don't want to touch PvP.

    From what I've seen, many so-called "hardcore" PvPers base their PvP mindset on hating their enemy. No idea why, but that's irrelevant. So when they have to fight againt their own faction, I don't know, they get confused? As I've said, I don't understand them, but there are planety of people, even outside RP servers, that don't like it when their own faction becomes their enemy, even for short while. So in FFA you kill them when they still believe you are on same side, kind of betraying their trust, maybe?
    Also, you get whispers because they can send whispers. Rage follows because it can, those people probably would rage at other faction killers same way if allowed.


    FFA zones are just PvP zones where faction imbalance does not affect gameplay that much. On the other hand, it makes going solo much more dangerous as chances of meeting friendly players helping out in a pinch are always null.

    FFA area with content might be fun, or not, it all depends on design.
     
  10. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'll explain to you then, why the rage --- The rage means that person thought into it, the more he thinks into it, the more angry he gets. Like you said, you enjoy watching others suffer, which betrays the assumption that most people assume from others: at least somewhat compassionate, understanding, and genuinely nice unless provoked. The rage isn't technically regarding you, but rather regarding the fact that there are people like you existing in the world, and the frustration with having to deal with that and having to reform their worldly views.

    More rage will come when you "enjoy reading hate whispers regarding it", that's when others realize that there are people out there who simply don't care about how others feel, in which case others are simply being treated as objects by you and hence any form of communication is mute. Of course, they'll feel frustrated because they can't personally do anything about it since you're not really treating them as people but objects. The only regulation on you is either by system regulation or infiltration into real life. However, maybe you don't really care about others in real life either so that may still be useless, to a larger degree maybe you don't care about most things in life, it's really a long road down. So those people are stuck without options and hence angry.

    Of course most of them won't think like me, they'll feel the anger but they can't really describe the reasons. So that's when you get tons and tons of hate whispers, getting more furious by the minute.

    You can just tell them to think of you as an npc, like a computer program that just goes through everything that you are allowed to do, tell them to stop thinking of you as a person with bad intention but not a person at all, they'll calm down quickly enough. Of course that's assuming you care enough to tell them so, which if is the case, then we wouldn't have the problem to begin with. Dilemma dilemma.

    If you enjoy watching people suffer, and you're not jailed yet, that means some other desire of yours must be directly opposite this enjoyment, such as a conscious, compassion, moral values, social acceptance, and personal freedom (hence a fear for breaking the law). So either some of these got lost when you enter the game, or maybe they weren't that strong compared to your desire to watch people suffer to begin with. People tunnel vision when playing any game and tend to temporarily discard external desires, so the former is more likely. Which is good in the sense that you're not a hazard for society (at least not conclusively), but bad for your victims and all who go through this trouble around the world because you're definitely not the only people experiencing this tunnel vision. That's why we have so many gankers in games. And the thing is, most if not all gankers can't possibly distinguish what's what and analyzing what themselves are thinking about in real time, so explaining this situation doesn't solve the problem one bit. Most of them probably don't even understand what I'm talking about here.

    And the thing about the victims, most of them probably don't have the resources and knowledge to get what they want, or even figure out how to get what they want. For that matter, maybe they don't even know what they want. So the end result is rage whispers which most of the time is filled with swear words and doesn't make any sense anyways.

    Good news for you, most people even in their extreme rage just sleep it off. You will very very rarely if at all meet someone who retain that rage over time for prolonged periods and go out of their way for revenge. Since you don't care about whatever's happening in the game as you're just playing, their only method to bring an equivalent amount of pain to you will be infiltrating into real life either through direct conversation in game with you or your friends using an alias (may take a few weeks to gain your trust and whatnot) or by hacking, which isn't that hard to learn as long as you've had an university education around the area of computer science and/or engineering. Or have friends who do. Often the pay has to be greater than what he experienced because he also needs to be compensated for the learning and trouble he went through to get to you. Once your personal information is obtained (to this step it is all legal), then he can choose to go the legal way of doing things or border on the line. In either case you can't catch him, but arguably the legal way of doing things still rely on you having certain desires and hence will respond to shame/privacy and whatnot, whereas the borderline legal way can do much more. Of course they can go the illegal route as well, you probably still can't catch him especially if he's prepared, but there IS a risk so if he's smart enough to go this far he's probably not going to risk it. Unless you piss him off that much. And if he's really rich and really pissed off, he can always hire a good lawyer and bring this to court --- And trust me, a good lawyer can make anything happen, especially in the area of internet entertainment whose laws are more pathetic and juvenile than alien invasion protocols. The worst case is of course, when he finds out that he knows you, or can be in some way directly of influence to you. Then you're screwed.

    But again, typically that's not going to happen. Unless you're totally an asperger in every way shape or form and/or repeatedly harass the same person with the worse intention possible, AND that person happens to know what to do. So as a matter of fact you can go on to do what you like doing, unless someone kills himself or kills someone else because of a similar event, internet law will stay as pathetic and juvenile as it is today and no one can stop you aside from game publishers. Neither am I condemning what you do. It's still human nature assuming you're not psychotic, so it's all fair game, you're by far not the only gankers out there though I'd admit you're one of the only ones I've encountered who actually post on forums and tries to communicate (assuming this topic isn't just you trying to show that you're 1337 and kill nubs and don't care hence so very cool), it's refreshing.
     
  11. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    More or less the point you are trying to make is people rage at Pk'ers because they view them as <REDACTED>s? That is a given, bottom line does not go to explain why one would let their frustration manifest into rage. Granted, one could say to a PK'er another play is content, and like every other piece of content in a game players have different ways of enjoying it. To a certain degree I can see how one would go about making the connection that they are heartless <REDACTED>s and care very little for their fellow gamer.

    While, I can only speak for myself that is hardly the case, I laugh at those that rage because in my eyes they are they juvenile ones. However, when I run into the players that fight back, call for help, gather friends etc... I thoroughly respect those players because they make the game fun. This is what makes being a PK'er fun, the potential for meaningful conflict. I am not sure what happened but early WoW people did not rage in the same fashion as they do today, they got a group together and fought back.

    I am not sure if the queue system is responsible for this, but at one point players worked together to kill those pesky PK guilds. At one time it was a valid play style. Now for some reason people do not view it as such, they question the moral character of the player, view they as scum. When did things become this way? I get frustration, I get frustrated sometimes while playing games, but rage I do not get and everything you wrote really does not explain anything new. In short you wrote people rage because you are an <REDACTED>. Watch out since you may piss off the wrong person lead them to hurt themselves or another, or seek to cause you pain be it inside our outside the game. When did this become the mindset?

    I am far from a 1337 player, reason I brought up this question was honestly because it seems like within the western market being a PK'er is no longer viewed as a valid method of enjoyment.
     
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Which I find kind of disturbing......I still see PK'ing as a valid method of enjoyment though :up:
     
  13. Benzecry

    Benzecry Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would be more up for instanced same-faction PvP. It would leave things more out of a lore standpoint, and heck you could argue that groups within the same faction would fight for political power or social status. I don't know how much I personally would enjoy open world PvP with same-faction killing. I think it would be cool to try, but plenty of enemies to kill will sate that for me.
     
  14. Stich

    Stich Cupcake

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    The way see it is simple. If you chose to play on a PVP server, when you, and your guildies are more pve interested, then its your own fault and fair game to any gankers, or PVP interested players. always makes me laugh when people rage at me on illum or in out laws den, for killing them. im like dude its a PVP server in a PVP area, dont like it then dont bother
     
  15. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    You make sense and try to communicate, which more than likely means that you're not one of those "I don't care and I just want to watch people burn and nothing else" people. I see that the question is regarding rage itself, here's a more ummm, theoretical approach to try to explain it:

    First of all, if people rage, and that's somewhat a common phenomenon, you can't simply say "they have a problem". Everything happens for a reason, and if that many people resort to the same action (which suggest that it is not just an individual case), no longer can you say "oh they're just being ridiculous". We have to now think about why it happens and how to prevent it if you'd want to, and what's the price for preventing it and is it worth it etc etc.

    Rage is a self-protective mechanism which happens only when there is unexpected sudden development (including information and/or action and/or status change) that poses direct danger to a person's desires/attention/view, AND this person is unable to resolve or salvage the issue immediately through other means, AND after the initial shock he re-confirmed that this situation is not acceptable through validation with his existing belief and view. The first step, shock, is the common trigger for several emotions. The second is the last insurance policy, basically when you corner a bull without an exit he enrages. The third step is critical, it's a complex process and I'm talking large here, but this is the step where tunnel vision starts to happen, because the brain doesn't present everything at once, particular desire or attention (the one being intruded) gets magnified, pumping you into a state where temporarily inputs and computations are both disabled and frenzy takes over.

    A simplified version is, this is fight or flight. When flight is possible, it is not only a preferred solution but also the back-up solution for when fighting turns out to be unsuccessful (for situations where flight may be associated with loss of valuables). When the flight option is clearly and utterly disabled, there is only fight, and the brain kicks the individual into an enraged state where multiple other functions are temporarily disabled, allowing maximum damage and chance of survival. Utterly refusing to accept whatever behaviour AND whatever deeper meaning this behaviour suggests closes off the door for "flight", having no other way of salvaging the situation slams it shut.

    So it has to do with being stubborn, maybe inflexible, which may then be tied into personal experience and fields of view, and it also has to do with how resourceful this person is as well as of course, his specific beliefs or desires. It all happens very fast, hence while wisdom of similar situations may help in some cases to stop the frenzy before it gets out of hand, in many cases that doesn't happen.

    Rage doesn't take hours, but it also doesn't happen in a split second, it's a compounded state that builds on itself quickly and escalate. This means that often people may feel the rage but be able to contain it (common method is to target either step 2 by trying hard to find some way to salvage the loss, or target step 3 by getting out of tunnel vision and looking at the bigger picture/previous experience etc). But it's not always simple, trying to contain the rage may sometimes make you even more enraged when you really can't find an exit and if this problem is unacceptable for you even at higher and worldly levels.

    You've mentioned expectation of mmo players in early days. You don't see people raging about being killed in battlegrounds, because the very first step requires significant shock, which only happens when something is not expected at all. It has gradually become the norm of mmos. WoW in its early days have lots of open world PvP, such as Tarren Mill vs South Shore, no body rages because 1) if you're a newbie, you don't know what to expect, being killed is being killed and it's easy to accept 2) if you're not a newbie, you already know that there's war going on in that map, so you expect it and accept it. It still makes a few newbie rage though, especially the ones new to mmo and take it too deep.

    The fact that there will be factions means that there will be many maps that allow open world PvP, and many maps that do not allow it. I doubt it'll allow within-faction PvP in that sense, referring to my explanation of "rage", it very easily shocks people when they're being jumped by one of their own, and they most likely cannot accept that they're being "betrayed" so to speak because previous knowledge and experience have all built up to suggest a trustworthy alliance. Mmos are bad at letting people voice their frustration through multiple and customized means, so feeling cornered in an mmo is oh so very often. There, you have all three reasons, boom there's a berserker. Factions introduce a balance between "alert excitement" and "serene security", you have your faction mates to rely on and don't need to stand on your toes when you're around them, and then you have hostile people ready to jump you when you're out there in a certain map. Taking out the security of faction alliance can often offset the balance for many, especially if they're already accustomed to it.

    It is not that people nowadays frown upon PvPers, but rather the expectations have changed slightly. Many areas and events are organized now, so instead of the world PvP we saw in vanilla WoW, now we have battlegrounds and wintergrasp etc. Which makes people even less expecting of being killed. And if they level up without ever experiencing world PvP, they certainly won't take it well if you jump them EVEN in PvP zones. They simply will take it the most direct way which is unwarranted aggression. But you see, there are still many open PvP zones in many games, WvW in GW2 for example. It has been the trend lately to separate the PvE and PvP aspects of things, which I think to a true PvPer doesn't really matter. But for those who miss a good gathering and force rally between factions, guild dominance and what not (I call it social-PvP), well admittedly that doesn't happen as often now. There's pro and con to either side but everything happens for reasons, at one point we can't dwell on it too much. Things change, people too, including yourself.
    Now Wildstar has faction PvP areas, it has warplots, it has settler building up bases, a lot of things are promising. As for people raging, it'll always happen, especially if you really enjoy that "surprise" element --- which guarantees the first step towards enrage for your victim. But as we saw in vanilla wow, as long as you've got some methods to your doings and not TOO nasty, people will adapt.
     
  16. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    So, in short you are saying PvP servers are just things from the past so to speak, due to instance PvP that varies in both size and scale of the battles. The idea behind random battles in the open world are things of the past because of a permission complex so to speak.

    People queue for PvP thus giving their permission to be attacked. So if that is the case why bother having PvP servers, if the mentainty in the western market is shifting to an instance based system? Do people roll on PvP servers because they fill they will have more PvPers? Is that really the only reason to have such servers, as a label a way to direct pvpers to a certain server? I have killed so called "noteworthy" pvpers out in the open, and even some of those people call Pk'ing a form of trolling, and most of the time try to follow up with a duel or wargame. I love these duels, and could spend hours doing them, but just find it funny "noteworthy" pvpers also view Pk'ing in the open world as silly and troll bait.

    Going based off what I have experienced and what you are saying is that PvP has become a permission based system, were surprise is starting to play a lesser role. I like all forms of PvP be it the formulaic style of Arena, to spontaneous style of open world, and everything in-between. Each offer their own thrill and enjoyment.

    I am just afraid that the trend follows the idea of PvP servers will be a thing of the past, and that the same thrill will not be present, since in instance based PvP you can prepare yourself, open world all around just offers a different feeling, but oddly enough to get people out in the world their has to be a reason that is why I enjoy Timeless Isle, people have a reason to there, so makes it so if they wish to do the quests the have to leave the comfort zone.

    But even with "zones" that are meant for PvP and are labeled as such, people do not seem to enjoy the surprise factor unless they are not on the receiving end, which is understandable, but like I said everything you said seems to going towards, PvP is heading towards a permission based system. I prefer to mix it up sometimes arenas are fun, but sometimes those get boring.
     
  17. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I don't have that opinion that Pvp is going the way of a permission based system and I think this comes more from a small group of players who like to hang out with the "tough crowd" on Pvp servers, but they just want to be bystanders and want the rules changed to allow for that. I'm sure we'll see some more open world Pvp devices to come in this game vs less.
     
  18. Benzecry

    Benzecry Cupcake-About-Town

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    Maybe a compromise lies in larger instanced areas for PvP. Such as a que'd pvp match where you go to a instanced version of a zone on the map, where it has been altered to FFA PvP. Some incentive to actually use it besides PvP and you can have people get killed at random, but then they are aware that they are at this risk. In the absence of having that in general for the entire server.
     
  19. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I do hope that is the case, I really do.
     
  20. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    ^ best into ever lol, Que imperial death march music.
     

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