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Problem with Faction Presentation

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Quantum Wizard, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. cBselfmonkey

    cBselfmonkey New Cupcake

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    Uh... theres no indication that the Dominion was planning on forcing the Granok to join them through military conquest. Heck the fact that they played the Draken's culture to their advantage to get the Draken to accept their Emperor and patiently waited for the Chua to come to them asking to join way after their first contact indicates that the Dominion wants willing allies, not bound subjects. And frankly the fact that those integrations went off without a hitch leads me to believe that it was the 'more boulders then brains' Granok overreacting to something then the Mechari causing trouble.



    Furthermore in the Draken/Chua cases the Mechari themselves were the ones who found them and sent the initial ambassadors. The Dominion didn't send them because they thought they were expendable, Mechari are seen as people in the Dominion no different then a Cassian or Chua. Baring rank/social class of course.

    So...if the Exiles were their first contact didn't it behoove them to -really- enforce on the Aurin just what kind of trouble they might be in for by sheltering them? Not to mention wasn't it a rather bad idea to then, you know, keep going back to that planet again and again?

    http://wildstar-online.com/en/news/wildstar_wednesday_the_ravaging_of_arboria.php

    Yeah. The Dominion response was waaaaay to heavy, I'll agree to that. But the Exiles seemed to be more focused on keeping themselves well supplied then making sure there were few to no way the Dominion could trace them back to the poor bunny people.


    Uh huh.

    The Mordesh were arrogant and paid for it. The Granok, however it went down on their homeworld, were foolhardy in flicking the nose of something much bigger then they were and paid the price for it. Now serving as roving mercenaries that have probably done plenty of 'morally reprehensible' things to keep themselves a float.

    The humans? Maybe they were heros 300 years ago when the initial rebellion happened but now? They've spent three centuries on the frontier and I doubt that they had the supplies to keep themselves and their ships working for that long nice and stored away. Chances are very good that they've only lasted this long by being pirates and raiders along the Dominions boarders or when they stumble on people like the Aurin and are able to take advantage of their naivety. Speaking of which, poor Aurin. Way to stumble into the wrong crowd at the wrong time.

    So...yeah. Not a fan of the Exiles here. Their cry of 'freedom for freedoms sake!" just sounds like a bunch of people who have always been at the top of a system like that. Definitely looking forward to roughing them up a bit on Nexus.
    Apostate likes this.
  2. Baconwich

    Baconwich Cupcake

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    I get what you're trying to say, but I can't imagine a Mechari being that polite. Or diplomatic at all. Really not a great choice for diplomacy with a warrior race, unless you're trying to send a message. Like in the movie "Snatch", when Turkish and Tommy brought Gorgeous George to buy a caravan: they meant it to say "Make this easy and don't mess with us, or else", and the Pikeys (or more appropriately, "Travellers") had every right to take it exactly as intended.

    As for how the Exiled Humans treated the Aurin, yes it does kinda suck that they drew them into the conflict, but when you're on the brink of dying from lack of supplies, and are running for your lives, the last thing on your mind is sitting down and explaining the other side's position to the people you're asking for help. It's a bad situation all around, but if the Dominion had just let the exiles flee in peace (at which point, who are they hurting?) there would have been no need for any further bloodshed.
  3. Baconwich

    Baconwich Cupcake

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    Stepping outside the discussion for a second, I think OP's point about faction representation has essentially been dis-proven, if people can argue so passionately in favour of either side. It's a little more difficult for me to see the Dominion = good side, but that might just be my Scottish heritage coming through. My guild looks like (if we end up playing as a guild) it's going to go Dominion for many of the reasons pointed out in this thread. Also: Mechari look incredibly badass, and Chua seem to be what GW2's Asura only wish they could be.
  4. cBselfmonkey

    cBselfmonkey New Cupcake

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    Mechari have been noted as the 'first contact squad' for the Granok, Chua and Draken. Hence its pretty safe to assume that they're in charge of finding and meeting with potential new races. Admittedly its hard to imagine someone like Agent Voxine acting with any real tact but who says all Merchai are a like? There are probably more...calm ones in existence that go on those kinds of missions, heck they could've been built specifically for them.

    And even if the Mechari were rude, or even threatened the Granok in some way, does that really mean their deaths can/should be seen as acceptable?


    Well for one I don't think the Exiles did leave the Dominion alone. A side from killing a lot of Dominion troops during the initial rebellion the Exiles probably couldn't have survived on the frontier of space on their own. Eventually they'd need spare parts, space ship fuel, power cells for gear and weapons etc... the kind of stuff that you can't just mine or grow.

    Assuming the Exiles don't have industrial factories of their own hidden among the stars to make theses things they'd have to take them, in all likelihood, from the Dominion. And by 'the Dominion' I mean whoever happened to be living on the edge of Dominion space, regardless of their opinions on the Exiles or their own government.

    For two taking aid under false pretenses is just bad regardless of the reasons. If thats how the Exiles acted then fine, great even. Makes perfect sense considering their situation. But it most certainly makes them space pirates, not heros.
    Apostate likes this.
  5. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    You were the person linked the ''sucker'' picture to someone didn't you?
    Well
    Right back at you :p That picture suits this comment perfectly!
  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Tell me 1 reason why WS is a WoW 2.0 I hope you do know that saying this means you think of WS as a WoW clone....

    I dare you...since you won't be able to....

    And don't try say things like, it's the same art-style...etc. It's long busted:
    [​IMG]

    It MAY contain features that may come from WoW (most lickely EQ though). But being WoW 2.0? whahah

    On topic:
    You guys wil eventually see that the Dominion is less ''bad'' then some of you think ;)
    I'm already looking forward to the same discussion before launch :D
  7. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is no argument that I have seen here that even remotely shows the Dominion in a good light and the Exiles in a bad light. In the Meet the Dominion video it's stated that they have steadily taken control of the galaxy through intimidation, political intrigue and a score of impressive military conquests. When talking about the Exiles and Dominion Diplomacy he crushes the glass. Now we know what diplomacy means to the dominion, and the fact their diplomats were a race of highly-efficient killing machines, it's no wonder these "diplomats" were destroyed. Then continue to look at the Dominions reaction, their dictator ha s temper tantrum and decides to wipe out the Granok, so they retaliate with overwhelming force on the whole population. No matter how bad destroying a bunch of assassin/diplomats is, attempted genocide is much worse. No shades of grey here, in fact my eyes are getting sore from the contrast. XD
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  8. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    I'll give you that there's not much dirt on the Exiles yet and more circumstantial and logical evidence and conclusions to show they are not squeaky-clean, but to say there's nothing showing the Dominion in a good light - at all, anywhere in this thread... well, that's fine and dandy, but it is at the end merely your opinion whereas you are currently arguing it as some kind of indisputable fact.

    Not to crush your illusions but that's generally how any empire expands. It is rarely done by entire countries or people willingly folding themselves in -- the Draken are essentially the odd man out here, and that was due to their extremely hierarchical society, as far as I can tell.

    Unless you want to argue that all empires are objectively evil, I think you are letting your faction preference color the way you're looking at this more than you maybe should. At a guess, the faction conflict (from what the developers have said) will be a lot more grey than what we're seeing in those videos (as a matter of fact, we know it).

    You simply can't look at the factions as if they existed in a vacuum and as if they had:
    1. Access to the same viewpoints we do.
    2. Held the morality of our time.
    3. Been exposed to the same circumstances as ourselves.
    I'll repeat myself from earlier. Yes, from our vantage point a lot of actions taken by the Romans, the Chinese, the Mongols, the British empire at its height (and many others) have been reprehensible and barbaric. But you know what - at the time they were not much different from how others would have done it and certainly nothing others reacted much over (except maybe jealousy over their land-winnings.).

    It seems shocking to us because we have our own morality which is quite different, but it might not have been so for the majority who lived then. But dismissing their actions, their goals and hopes out of hand because one thinks them all evil somehow is a guarantee to not understand them and, furthermore, not to learn from these things.

    You keep returning to the videos released and yes, the Dominion are painted as being more towards the dark side of the grey scale spectrum in those, but the videos are not all that matters in this situation. Again, word of god right know is essentially that the factions are not about good/evil, but more about perceptions and sliding scales of good and bad deeds -- and that it goes for both factions.

    I know the cliche is that a picture says more than a thousand words but I'd argue it just doesn't when it comes to this kind of subject. You can impossibly hope to capture the entirety of the Dominion or the Exiles in a few short videos (unless you are making the assumption that Carbine can't write a decent backstory and that everything will be hopelessly one-dimensional?) as far as characterization goes.

    Going "But the videos!" whenever someone points out what devs have said and what has been written that we know of thus far is simply not much of an argument at all but rather dismissing clues due to a strong belief or conviction. Not very conclusive to a good debate, is it?

    Malvolio is but one person and we know for a fact (through both evidence in the videos and the fake interview that was put up with him) that he thinks extremely highly of himself and that he is also a highborn Cassian who looks down on 'normal' people. Essentially, he is a clearly narcissistic personality -- might even go so far as to suggest he might have Narcissistic Personality Disorder (though it's iffy diagnosing real people, let alone an imaginary one) and would never ever admit to any wrongdoing that casts shadows on him in any way. That he's also quite theatrical ties nicely into that theory, too -- grand gestures, showing power and all that.

    All this makes him a pretty unreliable narrator and more importantly means that you can't take everything he says at face value to reflect the entirety of the Dominion or even the Cassian people. To him, conquest, intrigue and intimidation would be seen as justified if it leads to more glory and power. You're currently projecting the personality and flaws of one man onto an entire empire of people and races. That seems pretty harsh.

    Sure, genocide is worse than murder but as has been said again and again in this thread, ignorance is a not a very good defense. Essentially, your argument here boils down to "But what they did was worse, so the other side is absolved and justified in anything they do!" (You start with admitting destroying a bunch of diplomats might be bad, but then conclude in the next breath that you see no shades of grey there. What?).

    And regardless of if the Emperor (Way to weasel word the debate using words like dictator and temper tantrum instead of less loaded terms) got very upset or not at what transpired, as has been pointed out, a declaration of war is pretty much to be expected if you kill a diplomat and his crew like that. I'll repeat it one last time. Ignorance is not a good defense. It wasn't for the Dominion when they missjudged how the Granok would react but it certainly wasn't for the Granok either when they did what they did.

    All you're doing here is arguing from a position of ignorance in that you dismiss what the devs have said in some cases, put tremendous importance on points that favor your argument in others and assume we know everything there is to know already about the factions.

    And I got to ask - why is this so important? Why are you so adamant that the Dominion are entirely 'bad' and the Exiles pretty much entirely 'good'? The Dominion did some pretty horrible things so far in the lore, but they had reasons for it. Likewise, I believe we'll find out the Exiles have committed atrocities also, but that there'll be circumstances for them too.

    Eh, enough of a rant for now. I just don't like people acting as if I should apologize for my choice of faction and just accept that the Dominion are evil, nor would I like to see Exile players being dragged through the dirt for theirs either. Let's aim for some civility, shall we?

    I'm going to be pretty anti-Exile -- in-game. On these forums though? Think it's important to try to understand one another, or it all goes tits up.
  9. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Would like to add that my last post might have come through as more aggressive than I meant for it to be. Things like "arguing from a position of ignorance" -- I'm not accusing you or anyone else of being ignorant, merely noting that we have so very little material to go from still that it might not be wise drawing hasty conclusions yet. And with so little information yet, it's very easy to establish headcanon and fanon that'll make things even more confused later on.

    On the other hand, I totally approve of in-game faction pride. I just didn't read it as such here, and it seemed to apply to the players going Dominion too.

    Anyway, apologies if I overshot/was too aggressive.
  10. Roguehandle

    Roguehandle Cupcake

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    I am sure both the Exiles and the Dominion have done things they are not proud of. Also, I am sure both do horrible things thinking it is for a good cause.
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  11. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    That's essentially what I'm getting at, only I fail at being sparse. :)
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Nr1 problem I have myself :p and it's terrible to see someone being able to do so just below your own comment ;)
  13. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    This thread turned out exactly how I expected.

    That said, I agree completely with the OP. The people who post here are the most avid followers of Wildstar and constantly immerse themselves in whatever Wildstar content they can find. Of course you're going to find this thread full of passionate arguments for either side.

    However, the root of the problem is that most Wildstar players will not be this attentive AND most people can pick up on trends if they're exposed to it. The second issue is the most pressing one: an intergalactic empire with an aristocratic, autocratic government (which is what empires are) will always be more corrupt, oppressive, and indifferent to the plight of others than any smaller rebel faction unless your rebel faction is essentially an incredibly ideological terrorist organization the likes of Al Qaeda. The Exiles are nothing even close to being such an organization.

    Carbine has an almost impossible task of rectifying this perception in the minds of the average, common Wildstar player that will be. Whether they're both gray or not is irrelevant. As I've said in the past, I've still come across people who claim the Horde in WoW are the "bad" guys and both factions in that game are essentially empires. That should be telling enough with how people will perceive the Exiles vs. the Dominion when Wildstar makes its debut.

    The point the OP is trying to make relates to the perception of the factions by common players, not how you can align a faction according to your own views based on what's been released thus far.

    Also, the references to how granok responded to mechari diplomats is laughable. Try to tell us why the Dominion is not evil, not why the Exiles aren't good. The Exiles can be put into many camps depending on which angle you take, but the Dominion isn't nearly that flexible.

    It's obvious that some people can't step outside of their rabid biases towards the Dominion to address the true point: most people WILL see the Dominion as the bad guys and there's nothing Carbine can do about it except by completely redesigning the factions.
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  14. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    That's exactly the point I was trying to make Pyro!

    I don't think the Dominion is evil any more than I believe the Exiles are good. Looking at them they both clearly have admirable goals. The Dominion wants to bring law and order to the galaxy, and the exiles wish to bring liberty and equality. In my personal opinion their both about as wrong as a man who claims he's a woman! (Please don't read to much into that) For man can not live without Liberty or Justice for Justice is the bread and Liberty the water of the soul.

    Honestly I'm sure the Exiles have raided and pillaged their way out of Dominion space. Possibly done quite a few horrible things in the name of survival, but thats NOT the point I'm trying to make.

    Lets look at all the content that most people interested in Wildstar will be seeing, the videos. Put aside all factional loyalty all big picture thinking, and all the written lore! Drop you IQ a few points and watch the videos and just the videos! Then tell me who looks like the good guys and who looks like the bad?
  15. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    -- SNIP --

    Old post removed, there's no point in arguing endlessly, especially as the OP has said he feels the thread has derailed, and I probably wasn't helping much with that either. Just a few points, then:

    I actually agree that the Dominion are painted as darker than the Exile are with the information we currently have, but I take exception at how it's being argued in this thread - as if it was some kind of absolute, set in stone. Trying to argue that it's a black and white situation is not going to help anyone, especially if it turns out not to be true in-game.

    Heck, I even agree that the Dominion comes off as looking more heavy-handed if you look only at the videos. But if you read some of the tidbits of lore that have been posted in text form, it strongly hints at things not being that clear-cut.

    Personally, I think we should just stop arguing over who is good and evil and instead focus on continuing building a good community.

    For what it's worth, I believe aesthetics will be more important than a perceived goodness or evilness. Sadly, this thread is being used by both sides to argue things about one another, and it's not really helping much.

    All I'm advocating is stepping back a bit and seeing what'll happen, k? :)
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  16. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Well, see, this is in my eyes a lot more reasonable an answer than a lot that have come later, and in fact I've mostly been arguing against some of the more outlandish things posted later.

    And heck, I think I've admitted already that I largely agree with the Dominion looking darker than the Exile if you only consider videos. I don't quite agree it's so clear-cut as explicit good and bad, tho, but maybe I just have trouble not looking between the lines. :)

    Edit: Seems I replied too quickly, but I quite agree with your point about liberty and justice. They need to be balanced in reality.
  17. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    Yeah expand on the actual subject not go way off into west feild and turn it into a Exiles V. Dominion debate! The subject of the post is about the presentation and weather or not carbine needs to be doing a little more to market both sides as morally grey options. How is that one sided? I welcome everyone opinion but if people don't get back on the right subject I'd rather a mod close this thread down.

    Sorry if that seemed a bit harsh it just seemed you were kind-of aging on the argument their. I hate arguments but am easily dragged into them.
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  18. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Nah, it's alright. I worded that horribly -- I've changed it now, but you managed to quote me before I did. :)

    Edit: Actually, I removed most of the old post, as it was just derailing further. I seriously think people are jumping to conclusions way too early, tho.
  19. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Agreed. These threads do tend to become faction pride wars so a topic like this is hard to keep on topic. XD
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  20. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Guilty as charged. Despite trying to keep a level head about it, I totally misread your previous post. I'm not agreeing with every bit of it, but it's like... technicalities and not really important for what the thread is really supposed to be about. :)

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