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Problem with Faction Presentation

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Quantum Wizard, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Xalon

    Xalon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I haven't read all the lore but its rare for a game to contain a true good and a true bad side. Both sides have some good and some bad. One is lawful and one is aimed towards freedom. I'm going with Exiles
  2. binzer

    binzer Cupcake

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    I definitely view the Dominion as a little more evil, although each race has it's own unique flavor. When I watched the video where this issue was mentioned, it seemed like the devs tried not to create any extremes, but that they view the Dominion as a little bad.

    They basically use the law to crush entire races, so I'm not sure that the law in this case has anything to do with being good (which is sadly often true irl as well!). The Dominion races have colder personalities overall as well. The humans seem like social happy-go-lucky types, where as the Cassians seem disdainful of most company. The Aurins are emotional tree huggers, and the Mechari don't even have feelings. The Granok sit around drinking beer, and the Draken run around drinking blood. The Mordesh and the Chua...well they're pretty much both insane.

    Overall, the Exiles remind me of the Browncoats in Firefly, or the Rebels in Star Wars. Dominion seems more like the Empire.

    That being said, I like crushing people, so I'll be rolling Dominion ;)
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To the OP:

    So, I think one thing that's important is context here, first we must look at both factions in the context of Nexus (as this is where they will be seen). This is that the Dominion is returning home, and it is their rightful land, which they "legally" would own. The Exiles see Nexus as a new potential home for them to live. So, in this case, both somewhat have the right to settle and live on Nexus.

    Next we must look at each faction from the point of view of the opposing faction. To the Exiles, the Dominion are greedy and destructive. They're just out there to get more money and progress their empire, which they've been told to do by the Eldan (read higher power).

    To the Dominion, the Exiles are a bunch of criminals, which rebelled against the empire and have been smuggling and squatting on land they don't rightfully own.

    So, from this the Dominion are acting from rules passed down from a "higher race" (Eldan) while the Exiles are just attempting to survive. Both have merits to their argument, and there's no real good/evil here, it's just two disagreeing factions, and the other is bad depending on who's side you're looking from.

    In most stories the underdog is the protagonist, and in this case it's the Exiles, so players will likely side with them. On the other hand in most cases in reality the person following the law is in the right, so in this case the Dominion would be sided with. It's a really messy grey area that's dividing the two from right and wrong in this case, so it makes it really hard to arbitrarily pick a faction to say is good or bad. But if every player looks at each faction they will tend to side with one or the other.

    I think this conceptually blurry morality gives the game depth, realism (for lack of a better word), and intrigue. Kudos Carbine.
  4. skellyfreed

    skellyfreed New Cupcake

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    In the game of thrones you either win...or you die
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  5. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    tldr
    Well, skimmed a bit, and once again not real arguments against the point.
    The point is if the Exiles are portrayed as good and the Domionion Bad.
    And they totally are.
    The whole point about the Granok that killed the Dominion ambassadors is moot, because it wasn't the Exiles, but a small group of Granok who may not even have been a part of the clan that eventually joined the exiles.
    And trying to say the way the Dominion expanded it's empire is ok because that's the way empires always do it is silly, it was bad in real life too.
    If it was Turbine's goal to have to sides in the grey zone they have failed pretty badly.
    I think good and bad are pretty easy concepts, not open to interpretation like right or wrong.
    Bad things can be done for good reasons, and vise versa. It doesn't change the fact they were right or wrong.
    Just stick to the facts of what the Dominion has done, and what the Exiles have done, and it's very clear who wears the white hats.
  6. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not really, because the law usually requires possession, in the case of land, residency, within a certain period of time. I'm sure the Cassians will change the laws to suit them, but that is meaningless.
  7. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Then tell me why do people say the Cassians are arrogant?...they say that because they think Malvolio is so, yet in the Chua/Mordesh video you can see how he get's forced by higher-ups to talk about the Chua while he clearly disagrees. So the higher-ups disagreed with his actions, and forced him to do otherwise.

    So we only see 1 Cassian being...a bit cocky/arrogant, why do so many people here say all Cassians are arrogant/cocky? (btw this is a rhetorical question)
    ..........do I even need to talk about the coloured/quoted part? Empire expansion was bad?
    ......
    ......
    ......
    Where on earth have you gotten YOUR history lessons?
    Don't you not know that thanks to the expansion of empires we are so far as we are now (in technology etc. etc.)
    Trough the expansion of empires have we shared our knowledge and technology with one another (see roman/greek influences here).
    Saying it was ''bad'' is something you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be saying for you do not know what would happen if those expansions hadn't even happend in the first place!

    Each expansion, each war etc. has also led to a better understanding/knowledge/technology troughtout the world in some things.
    Mayby if those expansions weren't IRL we wouldn't even be discussion about a game, heck mayby games wouldn't even excists.
    This just deserves a teachers red pencil.....
    Thank the Eldan you used the words ''I think'' with the sentence: good and bad are pretty easy concept, not open to interpretation.....since it's clear you don't understand either the meaning of ''interpretation'' or just the whole concept of good/bad.

    What is good/bad? Who says something is good/bad?
    This time you say it! And you look at it trough YOUR own eye's, ofcourse someone who says ''expanding empires in real life was bad'' is totally biased.
    You look at it trough the eye's of someone indoctrinated with todays value's....you aren't being objective, and that's why ''you think'' bad/good are not open to interpretation.

    Overal your post made me :D
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  8. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    As I've noted both before and after that post, I actually agree with the Exiles being shown in a comparatively less harsh light than the Dominion thus far, but that's not really the point - the point is that there might a) still be more information to come and b) that you view certain things as bad in this story doesn't mean everyone will (and obviously the other way around.)

    At the risk of another derail, can you objectively prove that all empire expansions are bad and, more to the point, bad for whom? I can certainly think of empires expanding and bringing rather major advances in quality of life for the conquered nations -- sewage and water systems, roads and putting an effective end to warring clans when the Romans conquered Britain (up until they were pushed out), for example. Yes, there were bad aspects too - major ones, we shouldn't look away from that, but to say that empire expansions are outright bad in each and every single case is just plain wrong from an historical point of view.

    Furthermore, bad compared to what? Because this is a lot more complex than looking at what happened and trying to compare it to some dream scenario that never did.

    Also, good and bad are very subjective terms just as right and wrong are. What is good for one person might be bad for the next. Motives, beliefs and intent matter, or it wouldn't be a very good story now would it? Unless you're arguing that morals are somehow a fixed, universal thing and that everyone, everywhere, everywhen, agrees or agreed on what is a moral and immoral stance?

    Yes, the Exile are currently coming across as less oppressive than the Dominion but I'd probably assign them grey hats rather than black ones, because quite honestly they're not clearly good either. Also, let's remember for a moment that they would seem to have no issue whatsoever with pushing out the native civilizations on Nexus for their own gain, of which there actually seem to be a few.

    But I digress, let's go back to the two main reasons I think this is a storm in a teacup:

    First, I think that people are putting way too much importance on good and evil in this (and a few other threads) where there are also things such as aesthetics playing in -- and that will, most likely, play a larger role. Just as it did when blood elves were introduced in World of Warcraft, prior to which the Horde had a rather hefty size disadvantage.

    Second, I think a lot of people are assuming everyone will be taking everything said in the videos at face value, but clearly the Meet the Exiles as well as the Meet the Dominion clips is propaganda. Yeah, sure, there will be those that buy what's said in them outright, but I think quite a lot of people will not. We are, after all, dealing with unreliable narrators here - on both sides.

    The funny thing is that I'm actually largely *agreeing* with the point and that Carbine hasn't made a fantastic job at painting things grey at a glance, and I think that while it won't be as big an issue as some think, it will play into balance at first. What does ruffle my feathers is that people keep arguing in absolutes and overly broad generalizations, and I think it'd behoove us all to cut that down a bit.


    We have at least one example of this not having impact in the real world - the state of Israel (and I am not going to argue about that one, it's merely an example). What you're doing here is applying Earth laws to Wildstar and Nexus as if they were the same as Real Life and Earth and at the same time dismissing the argument out of hand without an actual counterargument that relates to what you replied to.

    Also, see the point above about the Exile having no issue conquering on their own as it suits them. We know there are indigenous sentient lifeforms on Nexus already, and we know that both the Exile and Dominion will be in conflict with them.

    So, in short, can you answer why it is meaningless?
  9. Rennuh

    Rennuh New Cupcake

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    I think it's right to say the presentation is a 'problem' when it comes to determining wether either faction is good or evil.
    If you actually read the lore then yes, it's not really clear who's good or bad. They both have a sort of legitimate claim on the planet.
    In the clips they made, the dominion guy is clearly not a likeable person whereas the exiles do seem like nice people, with the exception of the mordesh. And added to that is the fact that the dominion is 'the empire' and the exiles are 'the rebels'. Regardless of which is good or bad, popular culture gave us a clear preference for rebels. Almost all movies show them as being the good guys, most comparable movie being Star Wars.

    So I think most people are definitely going to see the dominion as the bad guys and the exiles as the good guys at first. But we haven't seen everything yet and opinions will probably change once you start playing the game and learn more about the lore and intentions of both factions.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It's more of a "law" or "right" given by the Eldan. So, think of it as land given by forefathers/mothers. Also, that's not really true, because governments and companies and businesses can own land without "residing" in that land. In the case of Nexus, it would be the Empire of the Dominion that owns Nexus.
  11. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    All I am suggesting is that they do ONE video that might portay the two sides in a different light.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Dear OP I think you got burrowed beneath an avalanche of posts :p

    But it depends....if they have enough stuff in-game to show the Exiles do some ''atrocious'' acts, then in the Open Beta people will know it.

    Although I would love another video, but that's just because they are so freaking awesome :D
  13. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd love to see the "Meet The" racial interviews done up as videos.

    Especially Lazarin's. Holy <REDACTED> what a sociopathic monster.

    -Rachel-
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the faction vids show off the factions pretty well... The Dominion come off with a lot of character, while the Exiles are kinda... boring.

    Also, the Mordesh reveal kinda made me think the Exile humans are kinda judgemental and just using the Mordesh, but don't accept them, and taking advantage of a desperate race. While the Dominion are using the Chua, the Chua could care less if they're accepted or not.
  15. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    Wow your one of those guys -_-...
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    What, it's true... I was laughing nearly the whole Dominion video, while the Exiles was just kinda like... meh, that's interesting and all but it's been done (browncoats).
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  17. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    As I've stated before, the Dominion's approach to the Granok doesn't stand up to lore logic when compared to their approach with the Draken and now Chua. Of course the Dominion could not enlist the Draken and the Granok for in-game faction representation reasons, so my view is that the lore was cheapened here, by presenting some Mechari that were far less analytical than they should have been. Replacing the Spartans and the Persian messenger with the Granok and the Mechari reinforces this by borrowing an idea - instead of creating something more original. I think the Draken and Chua lore approaches, by the Mechari, were more original and on par with Mechari behavior, as I see it.

    If the Dominion wanted to enlist the Granok, they should have sent female Draken as ambassadors. Problem solved :D.

    Well Carbine can't very well change the initial view, but they can shape perceptions from in game experience. I think that may prove best, as it will reach everyone playing and truly flesh out the greyness of the "good guys" and "bad guys" statements from various devs.
  18. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    That's about all that can be done outside of first impressions.
  19. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Aye, agreed wholeheartedly with pretty much all the posts since my last huge one. But I still maintain that good/evil will play less of a role than aesthetics in faction choice if people are uninterested in the lore anwyay.

    Also happy to see we're steering things back to be about how merely watching the videos might give someone an incomplete picture, rather than a black/white philosophical debate on the true nature of good and evil. Not that I'm not happy enough rambling on about that. ;)
  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Pretty much. People will just go to the faction they prefer early on and either faction being perceived as "evil" shouldn't be a big deal. People LIKE the "evil" faction so if people are concerned about faction imbalance, I assure you it won't be because a faction is perceived to be evil.

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