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Problem with Faction Presentation

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Quantum Wizard, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Very true. I do still see it as a problem, though. Mainly because it's a bait and switch proposition. It's the same thing that happened in City of Heroes: Going Rogue. During the initial interviews and discussions of the two sides (Resistance and Loyalists) there was a lot of talk about how neither faction was "Good" or "Evil" when in the end there were FOUR factions.

    Resistance had the Crusaders and the Wardens. The Crusaders were out and out terrorists, blowing up hospitals and stuff while the Wardens were spies and classic underground rebellion material.

    Loyalists had Power and Responsibility. Power wasn't really EVIL so much as Self Serving. It was a lot like playing Booster Gold. And then Responsibility was just trying to minimize the damage the other three factions were doing.

    People were expecting shades of grey, and what they got was black-hearted evil standing next to white hat goodness on one side, self-serving grey and white hat goodness on the other side.

    It was pretty disappointing.

    -Rachel-
  2. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your reply made me face palm.
    Just because some good things come out of an action doesn't make it a good action.
    In that case killing anyone could be considered good as it helps combat over population.

    Teacher's pencil, give me a break. Are you a professor of philosophy?
    I'm pretty sure Good and Bad are pretty universal, attested to by the fact that no one in this thread is saying the same action is both good and bad. They make reasons why the action was justified, or try to view the action in a different light, not say that killing someone is good for example.
  3. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Good and Bad are universal on Earth that is.....no let me refrase: Good and Bad are ''universal'' (awfull word to use since we don't know how each race in the universe would look at it, so how can we say it's universal? :p), for most people on Earth.

    The problem is that people tend to think in the way ''we think here on Earth'', so if IRL it's ''bad'' then in a game it's ''bad'' aswell......yeh right.....

    If we say something is ''bad'' would that mean in the entire universe it would be perceived as a ''bad'' thing?
    NOPE!!

    Heck even on Earth in different times some acts were considered ''good'' while hundreds to thousands years later it was perceived as ''bad''....so were is this ''universal'' aspect of good/bad, that we may all think the same?

    Edit:
    Shall we continue this with PM's?
  4. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I see where you are coming from, but we are talking about
    Problem with Faction Presentation

    to us humans here on Earth.

    I'm through with this I think XD
  5. Rek

    Rek Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like that it's pretty much chaotic good vs lawful evil. I suppose it can follow D&D rules that you can work one setup within your alignment. So Dominion players might be Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Lawful Evil or Neutral. While the Exiles could be Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good or Neutral.

    But Chua's seem pretty chaotic evil. So maybe they are the exception.
  6. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    Sigh... I agree. Someone get a mod in here this topic is sunk.
  7. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Snide name-calling and Ad hominen attacks aside, you don't seem willing to actually rebut what was said but rather repeat previous opinions endlessly as if that'd make them facts.

    "Teacher's pencil" and "Professor of philosophy" huh? Well, yes, I am a writer and I have studied philosophy -- can't claim professors title however. I get that you're trying to use those terms to belittle what was said -- but why not just call me a nerd and get the stereotypical high school feel going properly? If you dismiss argumentation because it's "philosophical" or "long" clearly you aren't really interested in a debate anyway.

    So yes, I guess we're done here.

    As I've stated already -- several times as a matter of fact, I actually agree about faction presentation not being quite as grey as it could be. I just don't agree with it being as clear-cut as some of you claim.

    I think people could do with thinking things through before opening their mouths at this stage. Also, lots of people seem to be quite confused about the difference between the opinion they have that the Dominion is Evil and Exile being Good with what the facts might actually end up showing and furthermore, assume that everyone will feel the same way. Seriously, what?

    I like this community, but this particular topic was one-sided in that any time an opposing viewpoint was offered as to why people might think different or react differently, it was met with "But the videos!" as an argument.

    And ye gods, stop using underhanded insults. The ones I just got called were kinda cute, but calling people you don't disagree with 'rabid' is not going to end well 99 times out 100.
  8. Mimsy

    Mimsy New Cupcake

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    It's always odd when people hit forums only to say, 'lets wait and see'. Part of the point of 'pre-game' forums is maintain our level of excitement, and to have other people to speculate with...could just be me.

    Civility.

    That being said....interesting to compare the original perspective of presentation to something like either Firefly or BSG. In BSG we clearly see the Cylons as bad guys, the humans as the scrappy survivors. However, it gets complicated real fast throughout the series...and black and gray turns into a messy gray. In Firefly, the Alliance is clearly the bad guy all the way through the (albeit short) series and movie. As the storyline mostly stayed on the outskirts we never see any positives of the Alliance, similar to what many feel about the presentation of the Dominion thus far. Just like the Dominion though, it could be suggested that the Alliance brought security to the central planets, education, medical care, etc. Did they do bad things? Clearly....River. However, we see that insanity with the outer planets too, and even the beloved crew of Serenity.

    For what it's worth - keep these lively and smart discussion going...but lets be civil about it in here. Save the gnashing for bg's! ;)
  9. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    They do mention healthcare and education in some of their interviews and obscure places in the lore however, Its obscure. I think they need to be a little more to highlight the good of the dominion, and alot more to highlight the bad of the Exiles. Alot of what I'm saying isn't just about the dominion seeming bad its that the Exiles seem a bit too "Squicky" If your not drawing logical conclusions from the fact that they are a rebel faction the worst thieve ever done is smuggle supplies to a planet suffering from a contagion and recruited a race of space "zombies"... wow how evil. I cant really speak to how most people who look at Wildstar are going to see this however I can say it gives me a pritty distinct feeling of off Off-White (Flawed good) and Off-Black (Evil with some virtue) which is slightly more realistic than Black and White but not exactly morally grey as the Developers have said.

    Yes their are people who believe the Dominion are the good guys but their mostly drawing the same conclusion the people who said the Empire in Star Wars where the good guys. Which has merit but is ultimately (In the early days) mostly just speculation.
  10. ThatGrumpyScotsman

    ThatGrumpyScotsman New Cupcake

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    Rather than make the Dominion out to be more 'good', they simply have to highlight more of what makes the Exiles grey. Frankly, it would be easier than trying to make modern 21st century humans relate to a Galactic Feudal Empire.

    Personally I think this adage would solve the problem;

    "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist."

    I'd like to see some evidence of the Exiles hampering innocent Dominion exploits simply because they're Dominion exploits. For example, maybe some well-intended Dominion Settlers are sent onto Nexus for the purpose of populating a small region. By all intents and purposes they're simply doing what they're told - slaves to the machine style. They build a few homes and a small village. The Exiles try to recruit them, but are fobbed off;

    "We like the Dominion, and we like living here. Leave us alone."

    They decide this area is too resource rich to let the Dominion have, and take it out with maximum efficiency. No survivors. Sorted.
  11. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok . . . I'm curious why this was directed at me :D
    I wasn't replying to you, the teachers pencil remark was in fact condescending to me, hence my reply.
    I didn't reply to many responses directly because they were either opinions, conjecture or general discussion of what good and bad is, and not really relevant to thei faction presentation.
    I also looked at the entries on different races to formulate my opinion, and that was even more conclusive.
    The fact that the exiles existence is due to a reaction of the Dominions own military to the governments draconian policies which lead to protests and then an order to the military to attack the Dominions own people.
    Oops, I said I was done didn't I (*^_^*)
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  12. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Ooops! Ok, in that case you can disregard part of the ramble as me being an idiot. =)

    But yeah, the base of things is that the Exile exists as a reaction to Dominion policy, and the videos are certainly not as grey as I'd wish. I think we'll get a more nuanced view of things once the game goes live, though.

    And yeah, I'll stop messing in the thread - I think I've said all I possibly can. :)
    Evgen88 likes this.
  13. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think in the end there is enough room to play your character good or bad no matter which side you choose.
    Which is what's really important I guess :)
    Kyro likes this.
  14. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Completely agreed. :)
  15. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    Well it could be really fun to see good Dominion and evil Exiles. If they do it right Id say. Good Dominion=let us spread culture and civilization amongst the stars as a shinning beacon to all peoples. Evil Dominion=Lets give them a tast of Dominion Galactic Diplomacy. Good Exile= You cant pin me down with your newfangled laws and empire and such, bring it on. Evil Exiles= Let it all BURN! I could see the good guys on both sides freaking out about how the evil people on their side behave. Dominion= If we do that where no better than the Exiles. Exiles= That's just a bit harsh ya think?
  16. Balgoss

    Balgoss Cupcake

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    I assume someone already stated this beforehand, but I'd like to say it to! (Because I'm stubborn, and I want to sound smart! :sneaky:)

    According to the factions presentation we have seen so far - Flicks, lore bits, etc - Dominion are clearly the baddies. (Again, only judging by the early factions presentation!)
    In 'Meet the Dominion', Malvolio says quite clearly that the Dominion conquered and controlled the "pathetic vermin that INFEST the Galaxy!".
    This is already enough to point out the bad guy, without even watching the Exiles' video, which reinforces this assumption.

    I'm sure Carbine had no other intention, though - For starters, they wanted to show us less 'grey', and more white and black so we'd know what it's all about, and once the game starts and we start questing - THAT'S when it starts to get grey and messy!

    2014? Can't waaaaait. :(
    Revon likes this.

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