1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

PvE Progression

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by hopscotch, May 8, 2013.

  1. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Australia
    Haven't seen any confirmation on how PVE progression is going to work in wildstar.
    Wanted to post some ideas on the forums on how progression might work.

    Example 1.

    In this example every raid released is a stepping stone to the next raid.

    Dungeons >> 20 man raid >> 40 man raid >> 20 man >> 40man

    Pros:
    • Carbine only has to release 1 raid per patch.
    • 40 man raiding guilds get to see all the content.
    Cons.
    • 20 mans guild are forced to do 40 man raids.
    • Some 40 man guilds might not want to split to do the 20 mans.
    Example 2.

    In this example 20 man and 40 man raids get released together and are the same tier level.
    (Assuming players can do both 20 and 40 man raids of the same tier)

    Dungeons >> 20 man raid/40 man raid >> 20 man raid/40 man raid.

    Pros
    • Players can do both raid sizes if they desire to.
    • Your not forced to do both raid sizes.
    Cons.
    • Carbine has to release 2 raids in a patch.
    • If carbine doesn't release both raid sizes at the same time one of the sizes will get left behind.
    • Patches will take longer because they have to create 2 raids.
    • Competitive guilds will feel forced to do both raids to double dip gear to stay competitive.
    Example 3.

    In this example 20 man and 40 man raids get released together and are the same tier level.
    (Assuming players can't do both 20 and 40 man raids of the same tier)

    Dungeons >> 20 man raid/40 man raid (Saves you) >> 20 man raid/40 man raid (Saves you).

    Pros.
    • Competitive guilds won't feel forced to do both raids.
    • 20 mans aren't forced to do 40 mans.
    Cons.
    • Carbine has to release 2 raids in a patch.
    • If carbine doesn't release both raid sizes at the same time one of the sizes will get left behind.
    • Patches will take longer because they have to create 2 raids.
    • People can't see both raids because they can only do one raid per tier.

    I apologize if a developer has already shared how this will work in wildstar if so this post is pointless.

    What are peoples preferred method and why?
     
  2. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Salem, Oregon
    It has already been stated that 20/40 are different raids. As far as I am aware nothing has been stated about locks yet.
     
  3. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Australia
    i am aware that 20/40 are different raids, What i want to know, are they stepping stones to each other or they are going to be apart of the same tier.
     
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2,884
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Z-Lab
    Aye!
    I think they'll be making it something like this (i'll be using tiers in my examples).

    Example:
    T1 gear = dungeons or mayby trough other means (at level cap) (this is the stepping stone to raiding)
    T1.5 gear = 20 man raid
    T2 gear = 40 man raid
    T2.5 gear = 20 man raid
    T3 gear = 40 man raid
    T3.5 gear = 20 man raid
    T4 gear = 40 man raid

    The whole number tiers can be skipped by 20 mans in order to acces the next T gear! So they aint convined to do 40 mans aswell.

    This way there are still differences in doing a 20 or 40 man, but as you can see the 20 man raid guilds can still progress their gear by only doing 20 mans. They aint convined to both do 20 mans and 40 mans, but if they want the best gear they will need to do 40 mans.

    40 man guilds can however choice to either only do 40 mans raiding in order to get that gear, or even do possibly a 20 man aswell.

    40 mans will be able to acces more content then 20 man guilds, however once a 20 man guild got (for example) the T3.5 gear they can mayby go with another 20 man guild and do some lower level 40 man guild in order to get some gear for other guildies/alts and to do that content aswell.

    This way eventually even 20 man guild could possibly acces 40man content but it will take a little bit of extra effort.
     
    Dnevnoy, Mierelle and Valtomus Hunter like this.
  5. Valtomus Hunter

    Valtomus Hunter New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I tend to agree with Extatica's Tier layout. One thing that I would like to see, however, is Attunements. In my opinion, attunements make the journey much more enjoyable and when you finally get there, the content itself feels more epic. It felt like you earned your way there.

    Example: Epic Quest Chain 1 leads you through high-level dungeons A, B, and C. At the end of this quest chain, you gain access to 20 Man Raid. At the end of 20 Man Raid, you gain an item/complete a quest that allows you to access 40 Man Raid.

    A lot of people may not agree with this, but in my opinion it makes things feel much more progressive.

    - Valt
     
    Extatica likes this.
  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2,884
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Z-Lab
    I agree, except mayby not with the 20 man = attunement for the 40 man part.

    But i'm totally in for attunements!
     
  7. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Australia


    This method solves some problems but it still has cons. (probably better then the methods i listed)

    If both raid sizes don't release at the same time guilds will have to do the most current raid to get the current tier gear. If 40 man guilds do the current 20 man they will be over geared for what the current 40 mans are tuned to.


    It will also stuff up world firsts for the 20 man guilds since the 40 man guilds will get them all since they over gear the content.

     
  8. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    It's not necessarily going to be dungeons > raids > raids

    I hope that people have the option of progressing through either means, but a raid gives more for the same difficulty. For example, you can progress through dungeons very little, then start raiding and be able to progress through raid content. But other may choose to progress through dungeons more then go on to raiding.

    A more simplified solution would be something like dungeons > raids > dungeons > raids, so that you can work your way up through dungeons to the latter raids, or start raiding early.

    I doubt we're going to see dungeon content that is completely nullified by raid content.
     
  9. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Salem, Oregon
    The problem with teired dungeons is amplified by less complex encounters therefore needing more of them. Nobody is going to sit through an hour+ long 5 man dungeon for example and if that is where the "best" loot is that is what will be farmed, meaning you need several smaller dungeons all with "newish" mechanics that are limited by the number of players involved. That in and of itself is a Herculean task.
     
  10. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2,884
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Z-Lab
    Well i can see your problems, but then again i don't think it's so hard to make a solution for them either.

    If you just always release a 20 man and a 40 man together, it solves your first problem. Don't go saying it will take you longer to wait then, because i think WS will have loads of other Eldan content for people to not get bored with.

    Second you talk of ''World First'', first i begin saying that no1 knows if that's even in-game. Since i've read somewhere that they are making raids that ''change'' with the weeks/months etc.
    So that would make a title of ''World First'' not as good as in other game that have raids that just remain the same. Because mayby 1 week was easier then another one? Or do you have to do all weeks before you can get the ''World First''? But then it doesn't mean anything if you've ben first almost every week but the last week another guild is first to kill the last boss so they get the title ''World First''.

    Also, still with the ''World First'' thing:
    Carbine said they are making changes to the PvP to make it more skill-based and not gear based. They can always make some kind of ''special'' feature like this in PvE aswell:

    Example: (still going with my Tier list from a few posts above)
    We got Guild A = 20 man and got atm T2.5 gear
    We got Guild X = 40 man and got atm T3 gear

    The new raids are released with respectably T3.5 and T4 gear.

    Guild A start with the 20 man
    Guild X start it (the 20 man) aswell since they want that ''World First'' title

    Members of Guild X who got T4 gear, get reduced stats in the 20 man dungeon so it's the same as having T3.5 gear.

    This way both Guild A as Guild X have the same chances.

    Ofcourse i don't really think they gonna implement this example, but there are some solutions.
    But then again i don't think you can ALWAYS keep everyone happy.

    Don't forget if we take WoW as an example:
    A 25 man guild with full HC gear got more chance on getting the next ''World First'' title at the 10 man raid, then a 10 man guild that only got the 10 man gear.

    So other games had the same problem. I think the title ''World First'' should belong to the best of the best! If that's always the 40 man guild, then so be it.
     
  11. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Australia
    Agree with everything you said except the wow example, Don't 10 and 25 mans drop the same loot unless this has changed since i stopped playing. so wouldnt they have the same chance at world first?
     
    Extatica likes this.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2,884
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Z-Lab
    Aye a little typo didn't meant to make that 10man HC gear :D just wanted to make a difference with HC and normal, cause to me a 40man is harder so you can kinda compare it to a HC mode raid.

    But that's kinda how you look at it tough.

    In WoW you had the difference between normal and HC
    In WS you got the difference between 20man and 40 man

    So it's still about the same. There are differences.
     
  13. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    586
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    UK
    I'm not so sure Sabre, raiding is and can be great fun, but you need that carrot - in this case the best PvE gear in the game. If you make 5 man gear as good as raid gear (except for a few content patches later ofc) you're pretty much left with achievements and cosmetics as a reward for doing the "hardest" in-game content.
     
    Kataryna likes this.
  14. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    My point is to not assume that raiding is going to be the hardest content. There will be dungeons that are going to be harder than some raids, which rewards appropriate.

    Different options are what Carbine is all about. There will be really hard and long solo content which will be rewarding, same with raiding and world bosses. It's not all just "the more people the better gear", though the hardest content with the most people will be the best (the very best gear will only be available from the top raid).
     
  15. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    586
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    UK
    I don't think you're going to see 5 man content be as hard as raiding, I wish it could be, but the extra challenge tends to come from the extra organisation required and not so much because of different mechanics or tuning. I'm not saying 5 mans can't be hard and never have been hard - hell TBC heroics were hard even after a T4 gearing, just that they're normally not on the same level. You go from 1 healer to 5 for example, so the types of damage and the amounts all happening simultaneously can be increased :D

    Layyyyyerrred-Content dude!
     
  16. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Well, if you look at wow - 5 mans from Mists of Pandaria are harder than 10 man raids from Cataclysm.

    It's all a matter of scaling - it depends on if there is going to be contents added in expansions or just at a steady rate (which I prefer).

    If content is added in expansions then it normally renders previous content obsolete - I hope Carbine doesn't take this approach.

    However if it is released gradually then they can scale it in a way that it isn't guaranteed to be dungeons then raids. This also allows them to develop more content (with better rewards) based off of how much each is completed (so if everyone has completed all the dungeons then they can make more, allowing better gear until people can go and do raids - and if everyone has completed raids without bothering with dungeons then they can just add more raids).
     
  17. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    586
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    UK
    I think looking to modern wow in terms of content quality probably isn't the best benchmark to set :p, I believe it's common opinion that their content quality has degraded, whether it be in difficulty or design or both - something I personally blame on knee-jerk responses to the forums plus changing staff with different ideologies (funnily enough a number of people who worked on WoW when I loved the game are now on WS)!

    Expansions and content patches do normally cause older (end-game)content to die off, that's just progression though. I very much doubt that people would raid MC40 for the past six years :p, then from a business standpoint you've got to allow new players to get into the game, whilst trying to reduce the entry mountain that comes a few patches/expansions down the line, you can't force your new guys leveling in low pop zones to be doing the same content that the launch players did. You need to get them up to the populated level brackets so they can engage in as many parts of the MM of the MMORPG content.

    Each content release gets it's day in the sun, then it's day in the shade then it becomes nostalgia, tis the way of the world :p
     
  18. Eldryth

    Eldryth Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Agree with this. It's roughly the way it worked most of the time in WoW (I think it was changed around the time Heroics were added, although it wasn't so good once 10 mans and 25 mans were made the same), with a few exceptions like Kara being part of the main tier, and it worked well. The biggest issue with it was the fact that there were far less of the smaller raids, but I'm sure Carbine can avoid that. It works because it doesn't force you to do the raid size you don't like, and the gear being slightly less effective limits the perceived requirement to farm both, but you're not locked out if you want to do both.

    While I don't mind attunements- in fact, I think it feels immersive and, as you said, progressive, I wouldn't want to see 20-mans being required to do 40-mans. It'll make it a nightmare to get everyone into 40-mans to start; you not only have to split up the group, but unless you have everyone for the first run in one of the two raids, you'll have to run more before you can even start (which, considering 20-mans will likely have a different healer-tank-dps ratio, is very likely), plus, every time you want to bring a new raider into 40-mans, you'll have to go back and rush them through a raid type you just don't care about (which creates a huge barrier to semi-casual guilds and multi-guild alliances). It's just a bad situation for too many people.
     
  19. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    My point is that if they have gradual content then everyone will eventually experience all content, just a matter of time if they work their way up. It also solves the problem of them lowering the strength of raids and dungeons over time, to accommodate for less skilled players.

    I feel by putting in more ways to work your way up through dungeons over time they will not have to lower the strength of raids, which will keep people trying and happy that what they did in the first month is still as challenging for everyone else - while also giving the people on the other side of the raid an easier time.

    I'm not saying that's what they'll do or that it is a perfect approach but it solves many of the problems that I have with expansion based content releases, that is - neglected past content and jumps in power.
     
  20. Eldryth

    Eldryth Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    While I understand why you'd want this, resets like this happen for a reason. It would be nice to have an easier way to see old content, but for people who join the game later, or gear up an alt? Catching up would be next to impossible if they have to go through that many tiers. Even if they continually add dungeons to help you catch up, that would just leave the newer community split between many tiers of dungeons as well, making it very difficult to even find a group for what you want. It's good on paper, but there are too many complications.
     

Share This Page