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PvE Progression

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by hopscotch, May 8, 2013.

  1. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you're new you can easily get someone who has played more to be able to help you out. If you wish to gear up an alt you'd most definitely be able to get friends.

    The point of the system is that depending on how good you are you may not have to work through every dungeon, you may only need to do every second or third even.

    It may be harder to get a group - but then again getting groups while leveling in WoW doesn't take long, not reason it should be longer than that.

    It would also bring people who mostly play solo (ie crafters/questers/explorers/gatherers) and they'll do the odd dungeon, slowly getting better gear too. Then there would be pvpers who would pve occasionally.

    The limited people playing the dungeons isn't that big of a problem in my eyes. Working your way up the tiers while it could be annoying it also allows many more players to experience content at their level - they can choose to go for something harder or easier and it'll change how quickly they gather their gear.

    Also with the weekly rewards bonuses they could have that for every dungeon and raid, so that every player can have an opportunity to get better gear, meaning that players that join the game latter than others will be able to progress faster if there are less people playing in the tiers that they are in. Of course this also greatly depends on how that system is implemented - since we haven't heard that much news about it either.
     
  2. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    No one has really mentioned this, but is there any reason you need to replace your entire gear set every time a new dungeon comes out? For instance, if a medium size raid has 5 bosses, maybe only 6 out of your ~10-12 slots gets upgraded. Over the course of 3-4 raids you entirely replace your gear sure, but you at least get to hold onto that epic sword from the final boss for longer then a couple months.

    Having a more fluid tier system also allows the devs to create challenging content without needing to nerf it over time. As an example, lets say that same raid is the first tier of 40 man. The end boss is tuned so that he's challenging when you have the 4 previous upgrades from the other bosses. Only the top few guilds on the server clear the dungeon at this time. When raid 2 comes out, players now have access to another 5-6 slots of raid gear. With loot from the first few bosses of the next instance in hand, more players can go back and are able to kill the first end boss. In this way, the content gets automatically nerfed as people become more geared but the bosses are not actually changed.

    By limiting the amount you can progress in any one dungeon, you also give newer players an easier way to see top tier content because the first boss or 2 of the new raid is already designed to not require full upgrades from the last tier.
     
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    The reason is that when new dungeons come out, they generally act as a catch up system for those who are behind on the raiding. Dungeons are an easier way to get gear that can be spammed. It's not that you NEED to replace your gear every time a new set of dungeons comes out, but that players just tend to do this. Upgrading for less effort.

    But then you're working on two raids at once. Also, if you only get 4 pieces of gear from the first raid, each player will run it probably twice and be done with it, actually decreasing the ability for less skilled raid groups to pick up players from the higher tiers, that simply need to finish up their farm. Also, since Carbine wants to change the raids every couple weeks, the lack of players needing gear means that this also is negated. I think making the raids simply "hard" and gating the content by skill is solves this problem, by taking the groups that need the nerf out of the equation. Having only skilled players raiding also prevents the need for nerfing.

    I don't think newer players need to skip content. While it can cause issues with guild recruitment, I think making the dungeons difficult enough to make the gap between raiding and "dungeoning" smaller. Not the equivalent difficulty mind you, but close enough that if you successfully finished a dungeon, you are able to work with a team well enough to then begin raiding.
     
  4. Ninereeds

    Ninereeds Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is probably just me but I would really like to see a patch of content push where the best gear in the game comes from an insanely difficult 5 man group. To me the smaller the group the more on your game you have to be, so if you have an epic, insane, pull your hair out dungeon that challenges a small group that would be a pretty cool change from the constant 40 man or 20 man grind. It would also make it a little more unpredictable as to what will come next for those who want the best in game gear. That kind of change would keep me from getting bored in the end game section personally.
     
  5. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    That would be desired in the system (you just try to do whatever the highest raid is) but unfortunately people are going to farm the lower gear raids as much as possible - if you only have 4 or 5 pieces of gear available then that's going to be exhausted quite quickly, meaning you'll have to wait or the devs will have to make another raid available. This can mean that people go through the content too quickly or they get all the gear anyway - just with more time investment.

    Due to the nature of releasing raids (you don't release them all at once) there will be people who farm all of the gear anyway, so making it so that they have a much easier time will just lead to the top tier players being bored. The more pieces of gear you have in each raid the longer it takes them to farm it all - the less content the devs have to make.

    Having more gear also allows more loot to drop, so people feel like they are getting more rewards. If there was only 4/10 pieces per raid then you'd have to reduce the amount of loot drops else everyone would be geared up in 2 or 3 weeks.
     
  6. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well with my idea of dungeons and raids scaling gradually they'd be able to focus development on what ever content is done more, so if there are more dungeoners that are not skilled enough to do raids then it slowly gives them better gear. Eventually you could have dungeons with the best gear - but I doubt it. However if you aren't in a top raiding guild it may be better to get gear from a more challenging dungeon to help you guild get progression while raiding.

    This could open up possibilities for raiding groups to have vastly different geared players - based off of skill level. While this can cause difficulties it could really help more players experience content without having to modify it, which is the main focus of my planned system. That and not having content go obsolete for everyone.

    However if they decide to go for a system that does make content obsolete for everyone (like WoW's) then they also have the option to design things like mounts, cool looking gear and housing stuff, so that people will go back to try to get that content - though that is not my desired approach, it would be better than it being completely ignored.
     
  7. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the challenge runs done in WoW had the right idea, where if you chose to do them, and were the best of the best at them (gold in all times) you would get a really awesome set of transmog gear. I think ultra-hard 5 man content should be optional, but that anyone can see you completed it by giving the undeniably coolest looking gear in the game. Otherwise you could get 10 players to run through it real quick and then make the raids fall over for the rest of the group, due to being the most skilled and automatically the best geared.
     
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    This would then put the expectation on the skilled players to run the less skilled players through the dungeon so the whole raid has the upgraded gear. Not that all raid guilds would do this, but it would be an unspoken pressure and feeling of the less skilled.
     
  9. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    True, but you'd also get better gear from the raid then you would from those dungeons - it just makes it easier to do the raid (depending on exactly how far you are behind in raid content). If you can run the lesser skills players through the dungeons that would make the raid much easier, but it may not be possible due to time constraints or the other players skill (you may have to work your way up).

    It can cause some extra pressure and tension, but for people who want to play with their friends it gives them more options and for people who wait to progress raid wise it also allows them to get gear supplements.
     
  10. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

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    I don't think its possible to make a 5 man harder then a 20/40 man, most of the difficulty of raid content comes from organizing all 40 or 20 people in your raid to down a boss. So you only need 1 out of 40 people to die and you need to start all over again, with a 5 man you only have 5 people that have to execute a boss strategy.

    Don't get me wrong i would love if they could do it and carbine are free to prove me wrong.
     
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I doubt the "people who want to play with their friends" have 40 friends close enough that they'd insist on raiding with them on a regular basis, and that their schedules all line up, as do skill levels. I think most would be fine if the dungeons were actually challenging, that they go and do those instead with their friends. Once you're at 40 people, it's likely that you just want to play with other people that you can at least tolerate. Likely chances are that you will like some of them, but the best possible situation is that you tolerate all of them.

    Also, it doesn't seem like Carbine really wants to gear their raiding towards people who aren't motivated towards it. They're purposefully making it harder to enter in logistically, so that motivated players will attempt it. Non-motivated players could still attempt it, but be more likely to drop out of the running. Basically they aren't going to cater to players who say "I'll just wait for the nerf, then we'll down it." or, "We just don't have the gear for this." because those players will already have found a different end-game thing they like more. Yes, there are raid groups that say that, and yes, they expect gear to fix everything, but it doesn't.

    I think there's better things for players to be doing than raiding basically, and that raiding just seems like the necessary end game for most players, so they do it out of the expectation of it being the end game. But if you create other options for end game, then the rest of it falls in line with raiding.
     
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Time it.
     
  13. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    "People" is such a general term. Personally I would rather play with all of my friends doing all the content than play with my real friends doing dungeons/arenas/bgs and playing with other people just for raids.

    By adding in progressively better dungeons for gear as time goes on you're not "gearing raiding towards people who aren't motivated towards it" it's the exact same as if people were to wait until there are nerfs, just rather than the raid being nerfed the players are being boosted.

    The whole point is the illusion that you'll be able to do it next - if you get a slight boost in gear and try hard you might just down it the next week. That's what it's all about. Having a progression system like this means that people who want to just do dungeons or solo content can, (or whatever pvp they want) but they also have the option of eventually going to do raiding.

    I think you really underestimate the power of friendship - if I didn't have friends to play with then I would not have played WoW, Rift or SWTOR. Once I couldn't play with my friends I cancelled my subscription.
     
  14. Ninereeds

    Ninereeds Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's where I think Carbine has room to be creative and past MMOs maybe dropped the ball. What about timed runs where the instance is collapsing behind you or the bosses could be randomized or have some additional challenge to them. With the combat being more realtime than static like in WoW and some of the other more traditional games you can have new fight mechanics that involve more movement and increasing the difficulty of the fight instead of relying on a sheer numbers game of having a large raid.

    I guess I'm saying that I think I'd rather see a dungeon experience that is difficult because of the mechanics of the fight being created as difficult, not the logistics of the planning being inheriently difficult due to size.
     
  15. Mailroomclerk

    Mailroomclerk Cupcake

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    There weren't 20 man raid guilds in Vanilla with nearly the same model. 40 man raiding will become the focus so expect to see no one care about your 20 man progression (just saying). The gear will also never be equal in comparison to the two raids. This is what will pull the 40 mans apart from the 20 mans.

    Do know the 20 man raids will be difficult and not LFR if that's what you are thinking. It's a possibility that it could become something that easy but I would hope not based on their HARDx100 quotes about raiding.

    Raiding is raiding, if you did 20 mans you had no reason not to do 40 mans. I'm not calling the future, I already know what happened in the past. You had to break into a raid group to do Scholomance at one point (10 man) but nobody dare call that raiding. LFR has raid in the title and it's not respected. 40 man will be real raiding. Whether it's subjective to you or not, it will be the consensus.
     
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  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Do you personally have enough friends to fill a raid group that have the same schedule and skill level? I don't, and judging by the 65% solo end-game number, neither do "most" people. (Yes, 65% is a majority.)

    That's actually exactly what you're doing. You're gearing them for content, even though they couldn't complete the previous content. You're providing a skip, an easy-pass, a shortcut to the next level of raiding. So... yes, you're gearing raiding towards people who aren't motivated to finish it the hard way. It's the exact same as nerfing the raid and either isn't necessary.

    Until the player base expects themselves to be able to down the bosses simply because they have the next set of gear. Also, dungeon catch up systems mean as a new player to the game, you skip the initial raids entirely.

    I get that, friendship is important for the health of the community. But, generally you consider everyone in your guild to be your "friend" even if there's only a handful you're actually close to. Raiding is a huge commitment to an entire group of players. If one of them is the group's friend, but they are terrible at playing, it tends to start bad blood within the group. This is because some of the players want to progress but are being held back, and some of the players want to stick together as a group. This usually ends up with the better players leaving for better guilds, and the others being stuck behind to try to progress with a gimped team. This is bad for friendships, communities, guilds, servers, everyone. I didn't say don't make it so that you can't play the game with all your friends, I said Carbine isn't catering raiding (one small aspect of the game) towards these social unskilled groups.

    If you do have 40 friends, that have the same schedule, close to the same skill level, and are all highly motivated towards raiding, GREAT! Make a raid team. If you don't, that's fine, there's other stuff to do.
     
  17. Hydros

    Hydros Cupcake

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    I hope they go more along the lines of how Karazhan worked in WoW BC, you had to do it to get part of tier 4, and then go do 25s to complete the set.

    I think it's going to work like this : Dungeons > 20 Man Raid <-> 40 Man Raid . Otherwise 20 Man Raids will definitely be overlooked, they need to be integrated into the progression and be as important as 40 IMHO.
     
  18. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't really see anything wrong with running 2 raids at once. In EQ2 you often did 3-4 at a time for different pieces of gear. Most of the bosses will be on farm status and take <20min to kill. After that, you only have 1-2 bosses you are actually progressing on at one time. No different then if you were only doing one raid, just less linear.

    With only 5-6 upgrades per raid, and today's loot rates, you are right you would fully gear up in a few runs. However it works fine if you only get 2-4 drops per boss for a 40 man raid. Even with perfect rolls it would still take 10-20 weeks to gear out your raid, and this is assuming that you have no new applicants.

    Yes raids should be very hard, but raid groups work on a sliding scale. Even if they stick to there 1% coment, there will still be some raid groups who need content nerfed, either directly (devs) or indirectly (better gear) before they can clear a raid.

    Sorry for the confusion, I meant raid there, not dungeon. I don't want players to skip content either. What I'm suggesting is that after a few raids are released the progression should be.

    Dungeons >> First few bosses from raids 1,2 >> raid 1 end boss >> raid 2 end boss

    I'm fine with top tier dungeons being very challenging too. Dungeons should be hard and rewarding enough that you actually hold onto some of the gear for a while even if you raid.
     
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  19. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    With regards to raids and gear progression there are many challenges I think developers must contemplate.

    Shared Raid Locks (between two raid sizes [20m/40m])

    When it comes to raid locks, I personally think limiting them is a terrible idea. I always disliked it in WoW. During my time as playing extensively, I felt like it limited the amount of content I was allowed to experience and benefit from. By simply allowing me to do more raids in one week, gave me a choice of whether I wanted to enjoy that particular raid. I didn't have to, I had a choice - this is important to highlight when considering the effect of burnout on raid zones.

    I think for the newer/smaller guilds this was beneficial. Having no locks means joining PUGs and getting the few items from bosses that PUG's could manage. I was fully aware of the weekly PUG's up to certain bosses, and am sure this was not exclusive to my servers. By adding locks, it simply meant content was taken away from these people, tedious or not it was still a choice that was taken away.

    Limiting locks per week is literally limiting. Do people want to be limited? I certainly don't. Allowing people to make certain choices and sacrifices only makes the 'guild ranking' more prestigious and enjoyable to climb. This is certainly better than a 1 dimensional, whoever kills this boss first wins.

    Gear and Tiers

    Gear is obviously an issue if locks are not integrated. I often played for rankings and for my guildies, but not all people socialize and have the same passion for raiding that will keep them going once the best loot is obtained. I do not think it is an issue that competitive guilds will have to do both 20/40 man raids for loot to remain competitive. It adds an extra challenge and more content. If one guild splits up their raid better to optimize loot potential then that's good. Being a top guild, I'm sure they'd prefer an extra few weeks of business rather than farming it.

    As far as tiers go, I certainly think 20 man and 40 man should have different gear levels and this is something Carbine has affirmed their beliefs on. Each patch brings a new tier. I'll try to display it visually:-

    Patch 1, Tier 1 - 20m is Tier 1 // 40m is Tier 1.5
    Patch 1, Tier 1 - 20m is Tier 2 // 40m is Tier 2.5

    To the best players in 40 man raids, they will not be required to use the 20 man to gear up (or less of it at least). This will determine how early they kill the bosses. The longer the weeks go on, the more people kill 20 mans to get their elusive 40 man boss kills. The progression is still there, and for the worst guilds maybe they will struggle with 20 man. If guilds cannot find the time to split it up, then so be it. Carbine has already said that the 40 mans are going to be hard, and 'if you can't do it, you can't do it'. Let the system determine who is the best, and reward the 40 man raids for their ability to manage such large amounts of people.

    Difficulty Settings (which also relates to loot quality)

    I understand the merits of difficulty settings in extra loot and less development time but provision of extra content - which is good. Personally I'm much more attracted to the idea of bosses being inherently difficult without the 'heroic mode'. Having the occasional boss such as Eredar Twins or Sarth3D is interesting, but it loses it's novelty if every boss is the same and has a hard mode. I've said before, difficulty settings breed the same culture that brought LFR - lord knows how that went.

    Raids were hard before the introduction of heroic modes, and the difficulty tied with the fact you hadn't done them before in some 'easy mode' version of the same raid, made the overall feeling of accomplishment a lot more pleasurable.

    Attunements

    Voltomus Hunter, highlights the importance of attunements in their provision of progression. I definitely think some difficult quest progress to gain access to raids. Somebody mentioned the problem of having to get people attuned to raids and how sometimes it's not easy to get the groups. So providing something that is difficult and possible as an individual (like Warlock green fire quest) sounds awesome. I like the idea of then providing some form of 20 man attunements to 40 man for an extra feeling of progression. As 40 man guilds should find it pretty easy to split a raid into two. Ultimately, attunements are necessary for a feeling of progression and accomplishment and the provision of content. It provides more enjoyment!
     
  20. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think 40 men raids are a good idea. They're a nightmare to run, but that's the subject of another thread.
     

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