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PvE Progression

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by hopscotch, May 8, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ok, I can see that, and generally have no problems with that.

    Actually the 2-4 drops per boss for a 40 man is too low. Due to gear being customizable with the circuit board crafting system, these 2-4 drops make this whole system obsolete. This is because there's going to be enough gear dropped that gives players not only the gear needed, but also the circuits needed. Not only that, but it would mean 10-24 pieces of gear per raid. This means new content patches will have to assume that half of your raid doesn't have the old raid's gear. This also means that the new raid can be done by players which didn't "learn" anything from the previous raid. This means that the devs will have to think about starting at square 1 each time they give a new raid, and cannot "teach" players through a progression of raids.

    On the other hand if there's a progression of raids, you can assume any players that finished raid 1 have successfully perfected certain mechanics, which can then be added to complicate the next raid. So, this gating mechanism actually can make raiding more interesting.

    Why? I mean I get not everyone's in the top 1% of skill level, but 40 man and 20 man content is completely different. The 20-man may be the easier version of it, and if a team wants to step up with the big boys, then they have to be big boys about it. With plenty of other things to do in the game, it's not necessary to make it accessible to all players, just the ones that are driven to keep working at it.



    Ah, that makes much more sense then... but still I think having a right of passage to the next raid and having new players having to go through the same right of passage makes it feel more "epic." They should be more challenging consecutively. Possibly release multiple raids at once to do what you're saying, but each tier of raiding should get more difficult, challenging, and more epic. That way the players who have defeated the newest big baddie are revered across the server, and players who just join the game go "Woah! That guy has different gear than the other ones and it looks way crazier." Then they have to figure out how much work they went through, mystery is formed around bosses, rumors start, and the "magic" that Mr. Gaffney talked about is made. Allowing fresh players that hit end game to go ahead and see the end tier detracts from that.

    New raiders shouldn't have a problem with seeing "old content," as it's new to them. One good thing that comes from normalizing raid difficulty, and catch-up mechanics in the game is so that raid groups can get new players without having to cannibalize lower tier raid groups or re-run the same content, just to gear one new player. For 40 mans this is an acceptable concern.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It's a bad idea if you want raiding to be readily accessible to all players, in Wildstar, this isn't the case.
    Mailroomclerk, MeakGG and Underz like this.
  3. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Somebody give you a medal. People seem to think this is WoW. Raiding in Wildstar is not supposed to be something everybody is doing. There will be attunements and it will be hard and not everybody will be doing it. As long as the means are provided to enter the raiding scene, heroics, lesser raids and then climbing the to better raids. In that case, that's brilliant.
  4. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I couldn't be more against that.

    By having the raid locks you prevent people farming content, while this may not sound like that much of a problem it'll turn out like this:

    Progression - Kill boss 1, reset, repeat until everyone has all boss 1 gear, go on to boss 2.
    Fully Geared - Kill boss X (which ever gives best selling for profit), repeat

    There will not be as many PUG groups because you'd simply form a group and then farm the same boss over and over until you have all of your equipment that you need (and there would be better geared players to be able to carry you).

    It also stops anyone attempting to do the next bosses, because they can much easily just farm one. This means that the players aren't going to feel as rewared as when they spent weeks attempting to defeat that one boss - since they can just go back and farm up more gear if they need to.
  5. salazar

    salazar Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've seen alot of people on this forum say that wildstar will have attunements. Im curious where this is coming from? I have only seen gaffney state that the raids wont have attunement, but something similar.
  6. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear and I'll edit the post. I mean't shared raid lock between 20 and 40 man. Sorry for the misconception.
  7. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I still dont really follow either one of you, why would there be a shared raid lock if the raids were both different ( ZG and MC ).
  8. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd actually think if that was the system W* is implementing, that would be awesome. Is that what they're doing? I'd like to see the source, would be awesome if it's true.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, one way around this (kinda) would be to only allow an attempt at loot once per week (or whatever). So then if you have some raiders that decide they want to practice a boss fight after they've done it for gear that week, they can do so. That way you're not limited on "content" simply the amount of gear you can get from it. Since Carbine also wants to have it so that groups can compete for quickest times on bosses, and whatever else. So, this could allow raiders to attempt amazing feats while killing the bosses. There's still possible ways that this system could break, and it could be used to quickly gear up alts, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If players are going to re-run raids as alts and their group wants to help them with that, it helps reduce the time that it takes to do repeat content.
  10. Marv

    Marv New Cupcake

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    I know that there are probably going to be the majority against me here, but I want it to be more like;

    End game Dungeons
    20 man raids
    40 man raids

    Kind of like TBC where after ZA there were no more 10 man raid instances and guilds would recruit as they are completing the smaller raids as a gateway to the larger raids.
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  11. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I liked the system, but how would new patches/content be handled? Each 20 man leads to the 40 man raid released within that patch? Or will the hardest 20 man still be inferior to the easiest 40 man? I definitely agree that using 20 mans as a gateway/progression path into 40 mans make the entire experience more fun and valuable at the end.
  12. Marv

    Marv New Cupcake

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    I certainly wouldn't want to see a new 20 man every patch, I'd hate for my guild have to split up every time there is new content in order to see it all.

    Tier 1
    Maybe kind of have a 'buffer' tier? So the first initial two 20 mans would lead onto the first 40 man raid and with one relatively well sized and another with just one or two bosses in then the 40 man being as larger or larger than the two combined.

    Tier 2
    After that there may be one 20 man in the next tier that may be partly clear able with the 20 man gear from the previous content, and then a couple of 40 mans that require the previous 40 man gear to be clearable.

    Tier 3+
    From then on I'd like to see the tiers be almost exclusively 40 man as guilds have had the time two clear two contents worth of 20 mans before they recruit for 40 mans.

    For example
    Lets say dungeon gear is Tier 0 and leveling gear is >0.

    so Tier 1 raids;
    Tier 1 20 man(1): Requires: Tier >0-0 gear. Drops: Tier 0.5 gear
    Tier 1 20 man(2): Requires: Tier 0+ gear. Drops: Tier 0.5-1 gear
    Tier 1 40 man: Requires: Tier 0.5+ gear. Drops: Tier 1 gear

    e.g First two 20 mans require a mix of dungeon and leveling gear and drop entry level raid gear required for the initial 40 man.
    The second smaller 20 man raid would drop maybe 1 set piece/higher Ilvl item(something special like a jewellery piece/trinket?) but require better gear than the first to complete.
    The 40 man raid requires the 20 man raid gear at least the be fully farmed, I expect the first half or so to be doable with with a mix of dungeon and 0.5 gear. Would drop the tier 1 gear such as set pieces and weapons.

    This tier would need at least the first 20 man to be cleared/farmed to progress onto the 40 man content creating a gateway to raiding before requiring the 40 core raiders. The second 20 man acts as an optional path, giving smaller guilds more time to recruit and stay active, and the bigger guilds can choose to farm it for an easier ride in the 40 man or only clear it once/twice and go straight for the 40 man for a bigger challenge!



    Tier 2 raids;
    Tier 2 20 man: Requires: Tier 0.5-1 gear. Drops: Tier 1-1.5 gear
    Tier 2 40 man(1): Requires: Tier 1+ gear. Drops: Tier 1.5-2 gear
    Tier 2 40 man(2): Requires: Tier 1.5+ gear. Drops: Tier 2 gear

    e.g The first 20 man would require the previous tiers 20 man gear to start clearing but to complete the harder half/final set the previous tiers 40 man gear would be needed or a guild would need to farm the tier 2 20 man to complete. This raid would drop the previous tiers 40 man loot and the starter gear of the current tier.
    The first 40 man would require the tier 1 40 man gear or the current 20 man to be fully farmed. It would drop the higher level gear from the 20 man and later half would drop the current tiers level of gear.
    The final 40 man would need tier 1.5 gear to start progressing but 1.5 gear would only get them partway through the raid. So raids would have to choose, either clear the first 40 man or keep farming the first half of this raid to complete it. Dropping the final tier 2 gear e.g set pieces and weapons.

    In this tier the 20 man becomes optional, smaller guilds can start clearing it with no 40 man experience allowing them to farm higher gear. Larger guilds who have cleared tier 1 40 mans can choose to skip it and jump into the tier 2 40 man for better loot/higher challenge, they may also choose here to split up and farm the 20 man for a slightly easier/faster 40 man clears.



    Tier 3 raids;
    Tier 3 40 man(1): Requires: Tier 2-2.5 gear. Drops: Tier 2.5-3 gear
    Tier 3 40 man(2): Requires: Tier 2.5-3 gear. Drops: Tier 3 gear
    Tier 3 40 man (3): Requires: Tier 3 gear. Drops: Tier 3-3.25 gear

    e.g The first 40 man would require tier 2s 40 man gear to start but would not be clearable with it. It would drop 2.5 gear and 1/2 tier 3 gear.
    The second 40 man would require the current tiers gear to fully clear, making it the least accessible raid thus far. (All other raids were accessible with the previous tiers gear). This raid would drop the current tiers gear.
    The final 40 man would be a smaller raid with 1 or 2 bosses. This would require the current tier to be on farm before being attempted. The first may drop non set pieces of equivalent strength or a special item such as a trinket?, and the final boss dropping a weapon stronger than the rest of the tier.

    In this tier the previous tiers 40 mans become a requirement for entrance where as before the tiers were accessible with 20 man gear. The two 40 mans would be larger to compensate for lack of 20 mans. So only larger guilds would be able to progress. The final raid introduces optional raids that yield loot of higher quality than the current content that would be purposely more challenging than before.

    From tier 4 onward I would expect a similar pattern of tier 3 to continue.

    TLDR; 20 mans to begin with start off as a requirement to 40 man raids creating a gateway to raiding more user friendly. Guilds can choose to jump into the 40 man but will find it very hard to farm with dungeon gear. 20 mans slowly become less relevant, the second 20 man need not be on farm to complete the first 40 man and the next tiers 20 man is not required at all but is there for smaller guilds to progress but is not necessary for the 40 mans. Eventually 20 mans fade out all together and the 40 mans become larger to compensate, raiding becomes less and less accessible due to the gear requirement and raids of high difficulty appear for the 1% to compete on a higher level but are not required to move onto the next tier.

    Things to note:
    (1) There would be no new dungeons/heroics to link gear gaps in each tier, the previous tier of raiding would be needed in order to move on, making each tier more and more prestige.
    (2) In the first and second tiers there may be a boss like Algalon from wow for competitive guilds to compete on more difficult content?
    (3) This take on raiding is not very casual friendly I know, guilds will need to progress through old content 1 year into the game (which is good in my opinion). Meaning guilds will be able to become recognized by how far they are into the tiers as opposed to which guild cleared the current content the fastest.

    ** DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION ON HOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE RAIDING FROM THE POV OF A HC RAIDER **
    I understand many would not see the content and many would dislike this approach.
  13. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Huh ?! That's a pretty odd thing to say... Why shouldn't raiding be accessible to all players ? Ofcourse as long as it's not along the lines of a retard proof LFR-like difficulty.

    I don't get this. If raiding shouldn't be readily available to all players, then why should rated pvp be ?

    And then we have a game where neither serious pve nor serious pvp is "readily accessible" to anyone. I'd call such a game dead in 3 months. And don't even think about telling me that I overreact, I'm usually so close to being right when I classify an MMO as being bad that MMO devs should be paying me to rate their games before they bother releasing them.
  14. Tokyomurai

    Tokyomurai Cupcake

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    :up::up::up:
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  15. Draahl

    Draahl Cupcake-About-Town

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    This i dont agree with, if there is competition for world firsts, server firsts i guarentee you that the highest number will be considered as #1. 40 man will be the only measuring tool most progression raiders will aspire too. Even carbine said that the raid progression is 5man<20man<40man, which means 40 man will have best gear and hardest bosses(we are assuming anyway). If you want to be a competative raider in Wildstar, 40 man is the ONLY way to go. However you are going to need to go through 5 man and 20 man to get there it seems.
  16. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like the whole idea of what that raiding system has. Where there is obvious progression and barriers to each raid. I like the requirements to entrance, just keeps the content relatively alive once it's completed. I think it's a good idea in that the goal is that guilds will be measured on the level of progress rather than the day they killed bosses.

    I just think that 20 man raiding deserves more of a place than just entry to the earlier stages of progress. If there is a 20 man per tier instead of 40 man. There is no issues because it would be doing the 40 man anyway. Splitting the raid into 2 just means more gear. But it also provides chance for the guilds who want to run 20 man raids. They are still inferior to that of the 40 mans because the top items and tiers are limited to the 40 man raids. But then 20 man guilds won't feel the need to recruit 20 people to stay alive, they can simple accept the fact they won't be in superior gear but are okay with that because they still get the feeling of progression and satisfaction that it brings.

    I guess the problem here is that those 20 man raid gear drops may be superior to the previous tier of 40 man gear. To me this is a simple matter of tuning and ensuring that even though the 20 man gear drops are better because they're harder.

    Either way, I'm okay with either system. One where 20 mans are left behind, and when they're not. I think extra ability for 40 mans to split and utilize 20 mans gives enjoyment on a more casual and spare time basis. While also giving guilds the chance to maintain a 20 person roster, but have to sacrifice their thirst for being in the top gear levels. Regardless the system you provided is pretty foolproof, I just think that raids do not need to be tuned for 40m to limit the gear and the top raids to 'the 1%'. I think a '1%' can be achieved in a world where 20 mans and 40 mans coexist and the latter provides superior rewards than the former.
  17. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

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    LOLWUT. You just described vanilla WoW almost to a T. Or are you really going to argue that High Warlord and Naxx were accessable to the masses?
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  18. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

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    Haven't seen carbine say that progression is going to be stepping stone method.

    dungeons < 20 man < 40 man

    This is my favorite method and would love if you could show me where they confirmed it.

    Example 3 the one that you quoted was assuming that 40/20 man were apart of the same tier and lock out, meaning you can only do 1 a week. So world firsts would be counted separately for each raid size
  19. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd definitely want to avoid this. Stepping stone provides more content and more feeling of progression
  20. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Ahh but the higher you climb the harder fall is when you reach the top :p, I'd rather have a good wide base of T1 content rather than rushing up through tiers from launch.

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