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Race-Class Options Awfully Restricting

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Naunet, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Ignoring the fact that I pulled those race-class combos out of my ass for the sake of example, why would they feel wrong?

    Look at the different races/nationalities of real life humans on Earth and compare that diversity to the different "races" of WildStar. Just because someone is american, it doesn't mean that they can't learn and master various eastern martial arts practices. The idea is similar with universal classes. I can actually totally picture a particularly aggressive and/or spunky aurin going out and training with a sword so that they can come back to Arboria some day and kick those Dominion punks off their planet. Likewise, I could see an especially erudite granok being drawn to the mental discipline required to become a skilled esper.

    Obviously, these kinds of things would go against the "stereotype" of the species, but wouldn't that just make things more interesting? NPCs could react accordingly. Roleplay is enriched with deeper characters that don't rely overly much on racial stereotyping. All in all, eliminating race-class restriction becomes a boon to the universe's storytelling, not a hindrance.
  2. Choop

    Choop New Cupcake

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    1. Not sure why or how you just compared MMO classes/races to real people. Completely irrelevant.

    2. Eliminating race-class restrictions murders lore and any sort of universal laws Carbine is trying to implement. Granoks cant be stealthy, Aurins aren't strong. It's that simple.
  3. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    It's not irrelevant. Ask any author of any fantasy or sci-fi or otherwise fictional work. Do they completely ignore basic tenets of cultural diversity when world-building? No. That would be ridiculous, and it turns every character into a one-note stereotype. You can't paint an entire species with the same brush. There will always be people who go against the grain.
  4. Lyas Tyrell

    Lyas Tyrell Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hear what you are saying Naunet, but I still disagree.

    I didn't mean to pull out JUST the examples you chose. But racially, the Granok are a warlike, and fighting race. Yes there are always people who go against the grain, but what I mean is there is clearly a phisiological detriment to these examples.

    A man can't fly, a dog can't breath underwater. Granok can't use magic (apparently) or be stealthy (also apparently). As well the Aurin aren't a physical sort of race, they don't go muscle to muscle with people, they sneak, and stab in the dark. Or use guns and spells, or as their lore is pointing out, use pure magic.

    It's not a choice, it's their nature.

    I will say that I hope one of the new classes is a purely technology/gun based class. Because I'd like to see a Granok with a Big ole gun.
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  5. Lazz

    Lazz New Cupcake

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    How do you know you can't paint an entire species with the same brush? Know a lot of aliens do you? ;D

    As mentioned - besides lore, animation time is HUGE investment for something like this. Watching the videos you can clearly see they have some high fidelity animations, and each of the races/sexes have very distinct body frames.

    Rift might have allowed every race to be everything... but their character models could have all been passed off as human anyway (short, tall, fat, skinny, etc). Rift was also notoriously bad for making everyone look the same, and if everyone is the same - why have races at all?
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  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    You are comparing humans and humans,why can't an American (human) don't learn asian things (human again). While in the game it's comparing Humans with alien races (alien for us humans).

    Truth is, we don't know how other (alien) races are made of. With this I mean, mayby there is an (alien) race out there with a special DNA structure, or with a special bone structure that doesn't allow physical strenght but instead they have awesome telekinetic powers. So seeing on of those races wear heavy armor with heavy weapons is not even possible in this case, so a warrior class is not realistic!

    So talking about realistic options with alien races is another argument that neither side can win since we got NO EXPERIENCE with it!

    Who knows the size and capability of the Grannok brains? I don't and you neither. So mayby it is just impossible for their brain to function at some higher level, which is needed to be an Esper class. Who knows?

    So again this whole discussion is just about your prefference of class/race combinations and NOT, I repeat NOT, about realism or ''real'' possibilities.
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  7. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Okay, fine. But the same then goes for those objecting. :p

    When it comes to race-class combinations, it's an element where I think game play and story segregation is appropriate in the interest of giving players more options.
  8. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Indeed both sides.
    But I didn't state my own opinion about this matter:
    I like the current race/class restrictions, to me personal it's understandable why they've done it and to me this seems ''realistic'' as far as my own prefference (it suits my prefference, so to me it's realistic). But that's just one persons view on it.

    But those who dislike it, have a valid point aswell.
  9. Twinflame

    Twinflame Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's easy to come up with a million reasons not to allow something to be done in a fantasy universe. It's also really easy to come up with reasons to allow the same, for all the same reasons. What Naunet's saying is that there's just no sufficient reason to tell vast swaths of the playerbase they aren't allowed to roll the character they want to roll, and I agree that it comes off as kind of arbitrary.

    It would be super simple for Carbine to add snippets of lore to support outliers to the race norms, especially intelligent (by their standards) Granok who developed a talent for telekinesis and can become Espers, or Aurin who are so skilled at managing their momentum and limited mass that their size actually improves their school of swordmanship, thus allowing them to make exceptional warriors. Mechari could use spells through science; that one's easy.

    Point being, if it's so easy to make all classes available to all races, why is Carbine saying no?

    Responses to stated objections.
    @ Lore is a problem: no it isn't.
    @ Race/class restrictions are better than racials: this is a nonargument as one doesn't have to have either.
    @ Animation time: this is a big-budget AAA MMO, so it doesn't get to use budgets and time as an excuse, especially when it's already been stated in this thread that animation time would not prohibitive.
    @Granok espers would be wrong: Granok espers would be flipping awesome. Shup.

    Bear in mind that Carbine is telling players they are not allowed to do something that they want to do. Carbine is saying no. I see no good reason for that.
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  10. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    This is because people are confused to what 'races' in games actually are. They are not different races, but different species. Thanks to SiegaPlays for pointing that out in a different thread.
  11. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nah, I'm not confused by that at all, actually. ^^
  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Not saying you were! :)
  13. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well it's Carbines game, they have made the Lore. If they have a proper reason for not doing so it's enough to be honest. Who are we to think twice about a story made by them? There are always things that you don't like, you can't have everything.

    Noone of us know what the in-game lore will be, mayby it clearly clarifies the race restriction. Mayby they don't but at this point of the game, truthfully we can't say it yet!

    As for this argument of you:
    @ Race/class restrictions are better than racials: this is a nonargument as one doesn't have to have either.

    I can keep on about this one :p but if there are no class/race restrictions and no racials, the distinction between 2 different races will become a bit little in my (personal) opinion, but I haven't seen any racial skill being confirmed so we can't say that for sure aswell.

    Edit: Omg I just noticed I sound like a politician.....:cautious: But well I don't see enough ''this is my opinion'' statements in alot of the threads. It almost looks like some people really believe they are at the right end.
  14. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    True I made the mistake aswell, but the point was the same. Had to use species instead of race.
    But then again, doesn't games use ''races'' at points were they need to us ''species'' aswell? So I can understand the miss-use of words, in games that use it the same way aswell.

    But i'm just not good in english :cry: (<-- lame excuse but I CAN use it so I will :D)
  15. Twinflame

    Twinflame Cupcake-About-Town

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    Race is used in science fiction a lot because of the Star Trek norm where different races look different and are from different worlds but are still very similar and can even interbreed. This means they aren't speciated and in Star Trek cosmology they actually share a common ancestry, thus the 'races' instead of 'species'. Most people aren't nerdy enough to care, even among nerds. Just looking at the physical similarities between the Exile races specifically, there's no reason to think they aren't similar enough in evolution that they would be different races of an overall amorphous species.

    Why am I talking about this?

    Back on topic:

    When I said that lore is not a problem that was not an opinion, but let me specify. Carbine is in full control of the lore and can do anything they want with it. There's no reason to use it to forbid a race/class combo when they could just as easily use it to permit one. You also seem to think that it would be a problem if race choice did not affect class choice somehow, either through restriction or through racial bonuses, which doesn't really follow for me. Each race has its own starting zone, so why does race have to be anything besides aesthetic beyond that point?

    Obviously the bit about Granok Espers was an opinion. I was using an opinion to critique an opinion. Point being that opinions are not reasons.

    Although I would roll a Granok Esper if offered. Also an opinion, I don't like being forced to fit a racial stereotype. A thoughtful Granok would be a deep and flavorful character. Carbine has decided I'm not allowed to play a thoughtful Granok. I'm only allowed to fit a predetermined racial stereotype. Which sort of triples my wish to defy that sterotype.

    Why would you even say that? The game hasn't even come out yet and you're already telling me to quit over such a minor critique? The "You don't have to play this game" is the most blatant and ridiculous non-argument that exists on the internet. You might as well have told me that I could eat a hamburger or throw milk out a window. Thanks. I'll keep it in mind.
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    First of all sorry if sometimes my points aren't clear, i'm struggling finding the correct words in english to make those points :D

    1. With the first part, I really kinda meant the same but then the other way around. Indeed Carbine is in full control of the lore, so apparently they made the decision of limiting it. They can do anything they want, and chose for this option. So if you want to change it now, it can be a problem with the already excisting Lore in-game. Mayby they even need to redo all kinds of Quests (the text which you get from talking to a NPC who gots a quests for you in order to make it fit again).

    So that's why I think (opinion) it is a problem, if they had to change it now. Otherway around indeed they can do anything with the Lore, even changing it to remove the class/race limitations.

    2. Well I did say in that part it was my personal opinion that I think the differences between races would be to small, but that is my prefference as stated with the ''in my personal opinion''. But others can see is differently.

    3. Sorry for this one but it has some history to it. This comes from the anoyying discussions I made (last 3 days) with some people on youtube stating WS was nothing but a failing WoW clone......and there arguments were: It looks like WoW, Same combat system (I was like o.0 same as WoW? WTF you blind?). So eventually yesterday I quit arguing that WS could be a great game if they just tried it before saying it's a failing WoW clone.

    And I ended with the same sentence.
    But I really more meant it to be like: There will always be things in a game people don't like, you can't have everything.

    This above may sounds to you personal but is not.

    Off topic:

    Make sure no one is walking under your window when you do trow the milk out :cautious:
  17. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    While I do agree that restrictions for certain race/class combinations help solidify a certain feel for the lore, I hope most of you who object to them realize it's also done out of some necessity.

    If they were to give every single class access to every single race, they would need to develop animations for 48 different combinations. Now multiply 48 by however many powers and abilities each class has (since in WildStar each ability clearly has it's own animation associated with it). That's just a ton of work and the game would not be out this year.

    So it's fairly obvious why the decision was made to look at the races and say "Would a Mechari REALLY be an Esper or Spellslinger with that whole magic angle? It doesn't really make THAT much sense, right?" And they are right, it really DOESN'T make a lot of sense.

    But the main reason behind the entire thing is just a case of workload. Stuff like that takes an ungodly amount of time, animations, and a crazy amount of fine-tuning based on all the various weapon skins they may already have in game. Another example is every single mag pistol skin Spellslingers have would need to be adjusted and fitted perfectly to each race's hands.

    I mean, it's easy for people to say "Well they should MAKE the time" but I'm not sure anyone here complaining about it really understands how MUCH time we're talking about, and how many people would have to be diverted from other projects to do it.

    If we demanded they give every class to every race, I don't think we'd see the game until 2015. Maybe later. Just saying...
  18. Chase Hunteri

    Chase Hunteri New Cupcake

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    I must say, coming from the Dota community, I expected to see alot more arguing, name calling and fighting here. In fact, this is the closest thing I've seen to an argument in these forums. :) Anyway, I think allowing all the races to be whatever class they want would be a little silly. Lets take Mechari as an example. Robots......using magic........
    images.jpg
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  19. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Just for Jackie I MUST agree with you :up: When even asians think it's weird :p

    And yeh, gotta love the WS community already.
  20. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I
    I know this might sound strange, but restrictions like this are important. It's an RPG, and there has to be some context to the choices you make for your character, even during character creation. Establishing this early on gets players used to the idea, and I think that's something that has without a doubt been lost on the recent crop of games over the past few years.

    So, count me in for whatever restrictions like this are in place.
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