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Race-Class Options Awfully Restricting

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Naunet, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    Obviously everything takes time and work, but animations for games are not so complex or time consuming that they drive broad decisions like this. While I don't do game character animations, I do work with the software and while I have no doubt that each animation was adjusted for each race there are tools which can copy animations between characters easily and almost seamlessly. When you do this you aren't animating a sword swing for example, from scratch, for each race. None of this has to detract from the quality either. As I said you have to adjust those animations for each race not just copy them. The Wildstar team looks to be an extremely talented bunch. I seriously doubt they would restrict which race can be which class because of animations.
  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    So was Scooter's quote incorrect in your eyes? :confused:

    I mean, no offense, but I'm gonna be taking his word for it since he works at the company and sees how they do things first hand...
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  3. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    dunno which quote you are talking about.
  4. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    That one, the one I linked earlier on the last page. >.>
  5. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    While I am in no position to prove otherwise, my experience with game character animations is quite different. Again it does take time and work, and at this phase it's likely too late, but I doubt from the beginning that was a driving factor. I could be wrong, but from my limited experience, that wouldn't be the case.

    But think about this. When they decided to add double jump, that was another animation for each race, but they did it anyway. It also became necessary to revisit enormous parts of the world they had built because now everyone could jump twice as high. They did it anyway.

    If they made had to make the decision today, with beta coming out soonish the decision might be very different, so yes man hours plays a role in decisions, I just doubt it was a driving factor in race restrictions when they made the decision to have race restrictions.
  6. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    And that's why it shouldn't be allowed.

    The devs have created a rich, deep world which states that Granoks either are not able to become, or very rarely able to become Espers. Likewise, Aurin require an exceptionally rare combination of luck, genetics, dedication, and training to become warriors, and would, thus, be exceedingly rare. If you give the options to create off-spec race/class combos, people will make them. In droves.

    It would completely shatter the lore of the world if you've stated certain races are rarely-to-never able to become certain classes and you see them on every street corner. Players are lazy. And every one wants to be a "special snowflake." If you give them the ability to do both by rolling up "rare" combinations, then those race/class combos will become the most common ones in the game.

    Just say no to Drizzt.
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  7. Inferiae

    Inferiae Cupcake

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    Well said mate, animations are often the unsung hero of a fine game
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  8. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Yes, they did, but that example also shows they focused on that, and possibly had to not do other things.

    When you are making something as massive as a MMO, you just have to pick and choose. Sometimes when it gets close to release time you have to say "Ok this design decision makes the most sense here, we go this way."

    Regardless, Scooter's quote is pretty clear. The most important thing to take away from it though is they are willing to listen for suggestions on future content. If the majority of the WildStar fanbase wants Mechari Espers enough, they can in the future I'm sure find a way. Just not at release.

    It could be the potential for an awesome story, akin to Data and Lore in Star Trek and the emotion chip. Mechari finding some lost upgrade crafted for their systems by the Eldan on Nexus that allows them access to the primal energies of the universe and thus MAGIC!

    If anything, it just means more potential story and maybe even quest content for them to release for us post launch. :)
  9. Glacius

    Glacius Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that after they reveal the two new classes and races that it might not seem such a big deal. There is still a lot of time for them to get feedback and who knows what changes can occur.
  10. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    I personally am in the camp that kinda likes race restriction. :p

    I don't know about the majority of players (certainly games like Guild Wars 2 and TESO have the philosphy that most players like more freedom with race/class/skill combinations, and the former is a very successful game so they clearly know what they're talking about); but I personally really enjoy having the race/class you pick have more weight to the decision than just aesthetics ^__^.

    There are times in GW2 where I just can't find myself being that interested in my character. With greater racial differences, I feel like more of an actual character, but that might just be me.

    Ironically, I also tend to play humans, who normally get access to most things anyway, but you know what I mean! :p
  11. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    What.

    No, seriously. What?

    "They shouldn't do it because then everyone will do it" is such a weak argument, I don't even know where to begin. >_> Who flippin' cares what other people do? Let people do what they want.
  12. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Part of entire premise of an RPG is to make decisions about your character. The creation of that character is just one of them, and having restrictions on the options makes that portion of the game that much richer. I promise. :)
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  13. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nope. I disagree entirely. Restrictions of this kind are nothing more than just another way of saying, "Hey, you want to have fun with X? Well too bad." There's no reason behind it. "It's important because it's important!" Is not a justification.

    I've already explained how race-class restrictions force characters to play into particular stereotypes. That isn't a "rich" world. That's a boring one full of one-note characters that are all variations on themes of "big, mean, and muscle-headed" or "small, agile, intelligent".
  14. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    What if, for example there was a 100+ hours questline to become an Esper? Granted it doesn't make sense really as you pick a class at character creation .. but hypothetically how would you feel about something like that?
  15. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    Even though I am for race/class restrictions, I don't think that this particular argument is very true :p.

    Guild Wars 2 (whee I keep bringing this game up :p), is the best example! It, to me, proves that even if you give players full race/class combinations, they WILL still sway towards whatever combinations are the most 'iconic' for that race. That's why the vast majority of Charr and Norn are Warriors, for example. Charr Mesmers, Asura Rangers, etc are super rare; so I don't think that players would be making such characters 'in droves' in other games. :p
  16. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    You're entitled to your opinion, it just doesn't happen to be one shared by the developers. You were already given a very technical reason why as well.

    By the way, in an RPG, "lore" is a valid reason - perhaps more valid than any other.
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  17. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Lore is fluid. Lore should be used to enhance and provide opportunity - not restrict creativity.

    [edit] Though as far as whether this opinion is "shared by the developers" - only they can speak to that. And the quote provided earlier suggests that they do indeed see value in opening up the race-class restrictions.
  18. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    To answer both your points:

    A large part of design, as nebulous as it may sound, has to deal with 'feel'. How something feels has a big effect on the player. Is this spell 'fun' to use? What defines 'fun'? It can be hard to define, but is nonetheless an important part of a game's design. What feelings do the restrictions we put on the player create?

    To use an extreme example, in an Action RPG, if you play on Hardcore mode (when you die you don't respawn ever), it changes the feel of the game significantly. It's still the same game, but the knowledge that you only have ONE life makes it very different.

    Similarly, the knowledge that you, a Granok Warrior, are something an Aurin can never be creates a certain feeling among some (I would argue 'a lot') players - a feeling of uniqueness in some regard. It helps to cement the idea of the Granok as a 'race'. "I'm a Granok, we aren't big into speed and fancy spells, so I may not be a fast Stalker or Spellslinger, but I can smash stuff but good!"

    But as for your second point - what about the players who want to roleplay an exception to the rule? Surely among the Granok there would be certain individuals who are different than others and who go off the beaten path and learn how to dual-wield magic pistols or something. Isn't race/class restriction unfair to those players? You can ask that, and you'd be right to an extent. Unfortunately, I think that there's a tradeoff to be had in terms of creating this feeling of: "Oh I like my race, I feel unique" and "I want to play this unusual class choice for this race". As Guild Wars 2 shows, only a very, very small percentage of people play 'unusual' class choices for their race (IE, Charr Mesmer, Asura Ranger), and I think Carbine has taken the particular philosophy of: "Let's give our races HUGE personality, and then make fans of the 'iconic' representations of their race even MORE happy with their choice" rather than watering that particular feeling down a bit in order to account for esoteric race/class combos.

    I mean, it's a choice, right? Both decisions have their merits, I'm just saying that these are probably the reasons why Carbine made the choice that they did. ;)
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  19. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I challenge the notion that what other people pick affects how I feel about my choices for a particular race-class combination, much less how I feel about the race as a whole. A species can have a very solid identity while still providing for the freedom to choose what you want to play, and I disagree that it results in a "watered down" persona for that species.

    The way it is now, if I want any degree of complexity or variety in characters, I pretty much am forced into Human/Cassian. I don't like being told what I can and can't roleplay - not when it comes to something as fundamental and game play affecting as my characters' race and class.

    [edit] Here's a question: If WildStar had started with no race-class barriers, would you be advocating the implementation of restrictions? Of not, then I really don't see why one would defend how things are now.
  20. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    I honestly prefer race restrictions based in lore and distinct differences between the races as well. The Warcraft model was my personal favorite up until they revamped who could do what with the Cata nonsense.

    Gnome Priests do not make any sense. It's a society based on bloody SCIENCE. Tangible, testable science!

    Night Elves who refused to give up using Arcane Magic? Yeah, they became Blood Elves not Highborne Mages.

    Human Hunters? Didn't we go over the whole Human Ranger story in Vanilla where the only Human Ranger died and was part of the Forsaken?

    Cow Paladins... Not going to touch that one. It's as ridiculous as it gets.

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