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Race-Class Options Awfully Restricting

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Naunet, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    Yes. It makes no sense in my brain to have a Granok able to stealth (stalker). My husband (as i stated above) is 6'6" and 400-ish lbs (think Granok size!) and is in no way stealthy or dexterous enough to be a stalker/rogue/etc. It makes no sense in my brain for one of the <Redacted/Gremlin/Mogwai/etc> to be able to wield huge fricken swords at things. It makes no sense in my brain for a Tauren from WoW to be a paladin or priest.

    also, fyi, this is all just in my brain. i have a strange brain. it thinks that geometry is not logical. it forgets stupid things. it doesn't like things sometimes.
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  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Well technically his quote only suggests they'd be open to it in the future if enough of their fans wanted it and there was a huge outcry for it.

    I kind of like how it is now because it leaves room for potential story growth within the races, perhaps later "learning something" from each other. I also like it because it implies certain things that make awesome lore tidbits, like Granok seem pretty inept when it comes to magic and being agile and using nanotechnology (which makes a certain sense due to their obvious physiology). And Mecahri, being machines, also obviously can't use magic or even magic pistols! That says something interesting about them, no?

    And to answer your later question, if the game was announced with every class being available to every race yes, yes I would actually be a bit disappointed. I wouldn't complain about it and ask them to change it, but I'd be a bit crestfallen. Then again, I'm someone who wasn't happy at WoW's release though when Night Elf females could be Druids and males could be hunters and warriors. ^^

    However, if they had made the game that way I am 100% positive that the animations would be less specific and much less stellar, and that is one trade off I probably would definitely have fought against if in this alternate reality they had decided to focus not on animations but just on all races getting all classes.
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  3. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    I can actually answer this question because I was in this very situation some time ago :p.

    You see, I quite like Guild Wars 2 as you might be able to tell from the amount of times I bring it up when doing analogies.

    I can confirm that I did, for a fact, argue FOR race/class restriction during Guild Wars 2's development (and by extension, I'd almost certainly do the same for Wildstar). The following may not be true for all players, but in my case at least, that was merely a 'con' of Guild Wars 2, and I had many 'pros' to enjoy - and I did. ^^

    Restrictions on the player, believe it or not, are actually something that ALL designers consciously think about! :) It's just a matter of degree. This is why the colours in Magic the Gathering can and can't do certain things; why Path of Exile chose to have respeccing be expensive instead of being freely able to; why you can't wield a rifle instead of a staff as a Guardian in Guild Wars 2.

    Do you like classes? Well if every class can do every thing, use every thing, what is the point of classes? Levels are also a form of restriction - they restrict when you get spells and when you can access certain content.

    If you don't want to be restricted in what your character can/can't do as you say, then it sounds like you're not keen on classes, either. What you are describing sounds like you want a classless, level-less game which they actually have, apparently - the Secret World. I haven't tried it myself, but it's out there. From what I hear, because it's classless, you can change into a wide variety of roles and use whatever weapons you want. The devs have taken the philosophy of people like you to heart, and that's totally cool. There's more than one way to make a game, I'm just stating what I like, why I like it, and what Carbine's reasoning for their decisions might be. :p

    Again, I'm not saying that your points are invalid (otherwise, games like The Secret World wouldn't get made), you just seem to be under the impression that there's no logic, no advantage to having these sort of restrictions in games, and I'm hoping to clear things up. :p

    EDIT: I also don't want to come off as sounding like I'm saying: "Go play TSW!", because I know that it's hard to read tone over the internets, so I want to put this disclaimer in to be clear :p. I'm merely using TSW as an example to show that there are multiple ways to design a game to appeal to different sort of players; and that Wildstar's decisions (not just race/class restrictions) but also to have 'standard' MMO things like raids, the holy trinity, levels, etc, have reason behind them.
  4. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I do actually enjoy classes. There's a big difference between wanting everyone to be the same and wanting the option to play X class with Y race if I so chose.
  5. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    I can actually like seeing the restrictions for the races on the class list. Mechari or Granok Esper or Spellslinger would be really odd, just cant picture them healing or using magic.... Granok is way to big to be a stalker. Then there is the Aurin, not really the Warrior "Fearless bruiser in heavy armor". So it does make sense to me to have the restrictions.
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  6. Clowne

    Clowne Cupcake

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    I'm going to take a moment to try to set the animation issue to rest. Imagine, for a second, that you have 50 skills for each class (that might be generous, but we can hope). Each race (excluding humans) gets three classes (hypothetically since nothing's confirmed). For simplicity's sake, we'll say the males and females are using the same skeletons but scaled differently. With 50 skills, six inhuman races, and three classes per race, you have 900 animations right there.

    Add things like walking animations (I remember putting my sword or hammer over my shoulder in GW2), jumping, dodging, etc, and you have tons of animations for just the non-humans. I have no idea if Exile Humans and Cassians will be any different animation-wise, but they add another 300 to the count if they are not. If you think 50 skills is too many, try a more humble 30. 360 total animations for non-humans, and another 180 for humans. Trying to get those to look good and not cause horrendous clipping issues is harder than you'd think.

    Animation time is a perfectly valid reason. But as others have said, it fits in a lore perspective as well. A Granok sneaking would be crazy, as would a scrawny Aurin swinging around a sword as big as they are. Also, as InnocentCivilian has said, it adds character to your character because it makes you more special. This is a social game, so you do have to give a damn about the other players.
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  7. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    Ah ok, sorry for misinterpreting your statement :p.

    I guess the difference in opinion is more like "at what point do classes start becoming more homogenised?"

    And EVERYONE here is going to have a different opinion about where that line is. :p Even though you and I just argued different points, we probably aren't far off from one another at all in terms of where we are placed on that line. :p
  8. Twinflame

    Twinflame Cupcake-About-Town

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    So you're reason for not allowing people to roll what they want is that if you actually let them roll what they want they would use that power to roll what they want? All you did was assert the opposite position of the OP's, which isn't an argument. Furthermore, people are going to be super special snowflakes whether the game enables them or not. It's in their nature, and honestly, they should be allowed to play how they want imho.

    Isn't Carbine's whole mission statement just to have fun? Doesn't it go against that to deny players what they want?
  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    it's actually more of "play how you want(with in the confines of what we have created for you to have fun in)"
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  10. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I've used it as a bad example for some things in different threads, but this is one thing TERA has got very, very right.

    TERA uses the same general concept of one iconic weapon per class that WS is looking to employ, so in this aspect they are comparable. The game has 7 races and 8 classes, and there are no race-class restrictions. Each gender-race-class combination has unique animations for every skill. That's 88 different sets of animations (I'm not going to go into the game and count the number of skills each class has to give you the total number) - and that's just for combat, not including unique sitting animations, mounted, etc.

    TERA is a tiny Korean MMO. If they can do it, then a game like WildStar can.
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  11. Twinflame

    Twinflame Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually, you might thinking of, "... play the way you want to play while experiencing an unprecedented level of exploration and discovery!" from their site. I don't see anything along the lines of: "Unless you want to play a Mechari Spellslinger. Then we throw the Jackie Chan wtf meme at you."
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  12. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    If their lore says that Robots can't tap into magic why should they change it? These aren't Magical Robots who contain the souls of ancient magicians. These are Assassin Droids.
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  13. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I actually like the restrictions, it adds another meaningful choice to the game. In my mind, there is something very cool about certain classes only being accessible for certain races. It really deepens the story, it makes the world feel alive and real when you're forced to consider why X class can't be Y race.

    When you make everything available to everyone, its another step in (what I feel) is that dangerous direction of prioritizing player accessibility over being immersed in the game world itself. The game and its story really starts to lose its identity the further down that path you go.
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  14. Guide

    Guide Well-Known Cupcake

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    Some players want everything handed to them. Doesn't mean it should happen.
  15. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't see anywhere their lore outright states this, and actually the very prominent presence of magitech suggests otherwise. I do see a bunch of players making assumptions, though.

    Woah, what? How did this get into the discussion? It's not relevant in the least.
  16. Guide

    Guide Well-Known Cupcake

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    Trying to prove a point. Using the argument "play how you want" shouldn't justify why race/class restrictions shouldn't be present. It's completely relevant to the topic, so please relax. :D
  17. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    There's actually a picture from Pax of the Mechari talking about having a sense of humor where it describes that as Bodyguards and Assassins. So, yeah... No spirit of ancient Wizards living inside them. No force-sensitive crystal alien Jedi in their positronic brain.
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  18. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Please try to keep things civil. Do not attack people and say their opinion is wrong because you disagree with them, either. That doesn't contribute and isn't constructive at all. </Mod Monocle>
  19. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'll admit I'm entirely unsure what the point was you were trying to make. "Play the way you want" is in no way the same thing as asking for a certain game mechanic to be nerfed to make things easier. Different concepts entirely!

    I have to wonder what kinds of roleplayers some of the folks in this thread are - and I know at least one other person in this thread is a roleplayer. How can you be okay with the game essentially trying to force you into set racial stereotypes with your RP characters?

    Personally, some of the time, when I'm creating a character I don't even consider class. My main RP character in TERA is, as far as game mechanics are considered, a human warrior, but she's definitely not roleplayed like that. She's just a civilian engineer - someone who worked on the construction of the waygates scattered across Arborea. She's never really seen combat, though intellectually she knows about the war with the Argons, so if she's faced with death or destruction or danger she... well, she reacts as any normal person would - with cowering, fleeing, maybe some unbecoming screams... XD Anyway, the point is, her class isn't even part of her roleplay - at least not yet, though I wouldn't be opposed to somehow working it in at a later point in her story.

    So you see what I mean when I say I like flexibility. Sure I could just roll a granok and just ignore the character's in-game class for RP, but I'll admit that it's not something I would do lightly, and considering it would only be useful for roleplay and not when I want to do anything else with the character... well, I don't see why I should have to choose between playing a class I enjoy and a race I enjoy.
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  20. Arawulf

    Arawulf Owner of WildStarFans.net

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    With all due respect to the OP, it appears that this thread was created as a soapbox for an opinion set in stone and that there is little or no room for disagreement which causes me to question the intent of the thread.

    While there is nothing wrong with being stalwart in one's opinion, and while nobody is wrong in this regard, I'm not really sure what's left to discuss here.

    WildStar will limit class choice by race and the OP feels this is 'absurd'. This opinion is valid, but just one of many opinions on this matter. Again, nobody is wrong here.

    Carbine has made at least two specific statements on this matter, so any argument against these should be directed directly at them:

    1. Limits make sense - this was Jeremy Gaffney's reasoning (i.e., Granoks make terrible stealthy characters)

    2. Limits are for animation - again, sure Tera did this but Tera doesn't have the traditional animation style that WS has and WS says specifically in their Reddit AMAA that they didn't want to have to create so many more animations. Disagree all you want, this is what they stated. I'm no game designer and I have no idea what's involved in animating WildStar.

    I sympathize with wanting to play certain combinations, and I'm not sure I agree with this limitation - I certainly see no problem with it.

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