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Race-Class Options Awfully Restricting

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Naunet, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Mouseknuckle

    Mouseknuckle Cupcake

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    I think the point of limits is the point of feeling like an individual in the MMO set. They've done lots to make it feel like you are one of a kind: With paths, to different load outs. I feel like theirs nothing wrong with limits to each race to the what they can do; its more of a personal feeling than anything else. Another thing is a lore sense and that also helps tie in immersion.
  2. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    An Aurin Warrior would be weird, there's just nothing graceful about it...
    I feel like games like WoW and GW2 are much too lax in class/race combinations, it just ruins immersion when you see something like an Asura/Gnome swinging around a melee weapon and being just as effective as the giant Norn/Tauren
  3. Inferiae

    Inferiae Cupcake

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    This is a fair point mate, Tera's combat animations are fantastic and there are no restrictions in place, however I think it's fair to say that combat was Tera's focus, consider this my friend, in Tera you cannot swim, walk, sit, crouch, straife, back pedal, double jump, fly, sneak, etc, you also couldn't cancel animations halfway through which was criminal in an action combat focused game, my point being that outside of the very well done sword swings on every race, they didn't do a whole lot else, and due to this Tera felt incredibly dead to me.

    Whilst I would of course like everything, if a few class restrictions mean I can do all of the above I consider it a fair trade off, also Tera is not a 'small' Korean MMO, it's budget was huge and they self proclaimed they wanted to make the best MMO in the world
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  4. A Game of Scones

    A Game of Scones New Cupcake

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    Think about it like this!

    In real life, can human beings out-muscle a large bear?

    Nope! In fact, it's so widely accepted and known that we are for the most part physiologically unable to overpower large animals that we've used tools for millennia. Of course we can TRY to just physically overpower larger animals, but our attempts to do so are repeatedly met with such resounding failure that it isn't considered an option by any sane person. Rather than continuing to just try and punch a mammoth to death, we developed a different skill set on a biological level.

    Now think about the Aurin! Tiny, nimble little people. Can they use swords? Of course! In fact, I'd argue that they could use swords built for them with the same amount of dexterity and skill as could ever be expected from any of the other species. However, no matter how skilled they were, they simply do not have the physical ability to trade blows with an eight foot tall rock man. The difference is just too large. While on their home planet physically overpowering something smaller may have been an option, when faced with an enemy that is completely out of their league on the physical front just won't work. They have to use a different skill set (stealth, magic, etc.) in order to gain equal footing.

    The argument I make is that yes, there certainly could be Aurin Warriors, or Mechari Espers, or a Granok who attempts to be particularly sneaky, but their attempts to do so would be so laughably inadequate in the face of other races who have an innate biological or temperamental advantage over them that they'd never stand a chance.

    And getting your ass continually handed to you in a video game because of an uneducated AND unchangeable choice you made hours/days/weeks/months/years ago is poor design.
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  5. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Actually, I feel it is. Players have had a growing sense of entitlement over the past decade and it is a cancer on the genre.

    Does this decision stop you from playing the class you want? No. Does it stop you from playing the race you want? No. Does it stop you playing *both* at the same time? Maybe. And *that's* where the value of choice starts to take on meaning. Please think about it.

    I'll just reiterate what I said earlier - the very foundation of an RPG is making decisions that mold your character, and character creation is just one of those. Lore, in my opinion, is the supreme governor in an RPG, technical limitations not withstanding. Both of those have been cited as reasons for Carbine's decision.
    Guide likes this.
  6. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am going to say something that may be unpopular so first I want to stress something:

    Even though I won't be affected by the race/class restrictions because I always choose a class that lore wise fits the race or vice versa I am not really for these restrictions at all!

    But I do see how they tend to pull people out of their comfort zone and let them try something new, see new aspects of the game.

    there is only one massive flaw with that:

    Most of the "comfort zone" players, in my experience, only play human characters, and yet humans are rarely restricted in games...

    Why? Do we really see ourselves as such jack of all trades that we can compete with any encountered alien species in any aspect of combat?
    Do we really think we are so unique in OUR diversity that no other species would be able to say the same?
    Do we really think a human warrior, carrying a massive greatsword would be any match for a Granok, or as good at stalking prey as a Draken? cause I don't really think so, and if a Granok spellslinger is unable to manipulate magic, then frankly a human warrior is deluding himself...so if restrictions are necessary, consider restricting humans too, so Steve-who-dont-play-aliens can be equally pulled out of HIS comfort zone and discover how awesome it is to get to be something completely different than a pixelated approximation of himself...
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  7. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I would rather see humans have restrictions like everyone else, but I understand the reason they did it the way they did which you mentioned: comfort zones. A fair number of players will play human just because its familiar, and if humans were class or faction restricted, it would create imbalances.
  8. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Personally, I love that there are class/race restrictions. I think it adds to the depth of the game. Aurin are feisty but don't seem to be "meaty" enough to be warriors. I'm glad they can be tanks with Stalkers (I think) so it doesn't hurt them, but their lore doesn't seem to lend itself towards meatshields. They seem more elegant
  9. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    You can sit. Still waiting that walk toggle, but the walking animation is actually in the game. Player characters use it when entering teleportals, and NPCs use it all the time. Backpedaling and strafing (tank controls) are unnecessary and would hinder the combat, as things like evasive roll move you in the direction of your WASD, and there is not "turning around in a circle". Every action is essentially a strafe. Double jump I'll give you, but I can't think of any other MMO aside from WS that has that feature anyway. It's not exactly standard. Same for flying (you mean like the character actually flying? o.0). There is a sneaking animation in KTERA - you get it by using some stealth consumables that were introduced in a recent PvP-focused patch. Aaaand lastly, I'm not sure why you think being unable to cancel animations is criminal, because 1) it isn't entirely true (there are some abilities you can use to cancel out of animations, and others can be canceled out of simply by WASDing), and 2) it means that every action you take has meaning.

    I think you need to consider when game play and story segregation is appropriate. There is such a thing as too much realism in a video game.
  10. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    Both sides have valid points. Frankly, I love racial restrictions, but I understand why it bothers a lot of people.
  11. Roland Daemon

    Roland Daemon Cupcake-About-Town

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    While I hate to slog up the post again and get thigns heated.. thought i'd post my views on the subject...

    IN VIDEO FORM

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  12. Inferiae

    Inferiae Cupcake

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    I’m not here to bash Tera mate I actually found it incredibly fun, and I don’t wish to derail your thread, however I will address the points you’ve made in regards to Tera

    To me this is actually more of an issue than them simply not creating the animation, why have it in game and not give your playerbase access to it? RP’ers have been crying out for this since release and BHS simply do not listen to their fanbase

    Why? I fail to see how backpedaling would be a hindrance, I found it looked ridiculous when tanking a boss that my character would turn his back on the boss when I wanted to move backwards, call me an idiot if you will but the LAST thing I would do when facing a 20ft Behemoth would be to lose sight of him, backpedaling doesn’t necessarily mean WoW’s version where you lose speed, your character could have ran backwards whilst glancing over their shoulder for example, much like a football player runs when receiving a pass from behind them.

    Straifing follows the same logic, it looks odd how your character instead of straifing and keeping his eyes on the target, runs sideways, once again this isn’t a realistic movement for someone in this situation, you wouldn’t take your eyes off the opposition.

    The above 2 are of course not game-breaking, and wouldn’t add to combat as such but it does make the game look cheap in my eyes

    I’m afraid our opinions here obviously differ, I thought that for an ‘action MMO’ being rooted to the ground whilst firing an arrow or a spell was awful and as for lancers animations taking forever with no way of interrupting them mid flow it was just incredibly frustrating, I’ll grant you that it gave our actions meaning, but ultimately not in a good way, no good action game does this, and there’s a reason for it, watching your character mindlessly finish a swing whilst your opponent charges up a powerful attack only to be completely unable to react upon it - sucks.

    I’ll take your word for this :)

    Back to the topic at hand

    My point wasn’t to slag Tera off mate, it’s a good game if not entirely my cup of tea, my point was that you’d raised the argument that Tera allowed every race to be every class, I saluted this but at the same time pointed out that whether you deem them ‘unnecessary’ or not, Wildstars characters are vastly more animated than Teras.

    Let me put it this way, and I think you’ll find it hard to disagree with me here if you were being honest, more people would be playing Tera today if at release the combat featured the improvements I’ve listed above, instead of allowing your Popori to wield a 2 handed sword
  13. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hate ARAC. EQ2 went that route at launch and it was the dumbest design decision ever. They also started everyone in the same cities. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

    To insure that players are invested in these characters and continue to play the game, the Dev's need to foster an affection and identity between the User and his character. These characters need unique lore, they need individuality, and they need class restrictions with unique class traits. All of these types of individuality make the character more unique and appealable to the User. The User becomes more invested with his toon, starts to identify with and feel a sense of pride in their development and accomplishmentts.

    Anything that adds to developing that connection is a positive. It's been proven through trial and error that ARAC does the opposite. Having the races start in the same city with the same backstory does the opposite. Not having race specific abilities (including varied dances) does the opposite.

    The easiest way to start building class individuality is to restrict the classes to fit the lore. Something that simple allows people before the game even launches to seek out and identify with a concept that they love and want to develop. It's step one on building an affection between the User and his character. That affection is what keeps people playing these games when burn-out sets in.
  14. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't see how you can feel more unique when everyone who plays, say, a granok is going to be one of three potential classes. That's not individuality; that's conforming to a stereotype, which is the exact opposite.

    @Inferiae: I wasn't actually defending TERA when I replied to you, just correcting assertions you made about animations the game lacked when it didn't actually lack them (and questioning the significance of others). Hell, the only reason I'm still playing TERA is because 1) the combat and graphics are incredible despite the <REDACTED>ty amount of content and the horrible F2P fiasco, and 2) the roleplay and the RP guild I've involved myself in makes it extremely hard to cut ties.

    I highly doubt that TERA's shortcomings are due to the game having no race-class restriction. It's more due to it being a Korean MMO, which means it was built to last only a couple years, just long enough to rake in enough cash for BHS to start up new projects. That's the Korean MMO market. Unfortunately.

    I have absolutely no idea what "ARAC" is, but I haven't said one thing about races starting in the same city, with the same backstory, and with no race-specific abilities. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though, I suppose...

    Do you realize how silly you sound when you say essentially, "The best way to make someone feel individual and unique is to make everyone who plays the same race feel exactly the same"?
  15. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Totally agree, to be honest I have (almost) never played a human race! (Except if there were only humans to play as...)
    I just hope the humans don't get that melee/healer thing class that has staves. Indeed let people roll grannok if they want that class. Don't let humans be everything, totally agree on that one.

    Just +1 for the video, now I can read posts of others while listening to your (sexy;)) voice.

    Just 1 thing about your tiny, little, awesome comments. Please next time make them last 1 sec longer, that makes the black screens less anoying and.....well some of those comments of you just went to fast for me to read every word (I always click back if i couldn't read 100% of the words even at 99% of the words i'm like omg give me that last one!)

    But nice vid and i sooo agree with you on this subject.

    But when i saw the title of your vid ''Not created equal'' i couldn't help remembering something of an anime i've watched:
    All men are not created equal! (Speech begins at 0:25 with english subs)
  16. Hommedaction

    Hommedaction Cupcake

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    All hail Lelouch!

    If Carbine really had a <REDACTED>load of money, they could have allowed all races to have access to classes they don't naturally have without tearing the lore appart.
    A 150h questline that allows you to turn your character in a lvl1 toon of the said class. That should be enough to justify your Granok has become an Esper.
    Allowing people to overcome their limitations if they have enough willpower is a wonderful thing, but it would be just too expensive to develop.

    Remember how Suzaku ended up using his Geass to his advantage? That's what I'm talking about.
  17. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    ARAC stands for All Races, All Classes. I think you are confusing culture with stereotype. Culture should be synonymous with lore. If a culture or society does not have the knowledge or the belief in a certain way of life, than obviously they would not partake in that. It all comes back to lore. Something the creators of this game have spent an exhaustive amount of time upon.

    Some people just want to play whatever they want, however they want it. Lore means nothing to them, and they probably tab through the quests. Others prefer total immersion. Some are in-between.

    You're not going to get total individuality in an MMO. But you can identify with your race selection and the lore behind them. You can be part of a group on an individual concept level. The race being that singular entity. And as long as respecs and dual specs aren't rampant, you can find individuality in your class profession as well. That combo allows you to then roleplay as you see fit if you are seeking individuality, and it allows you to do so within the confines and parameters of established lore.

    But, no, I don't realize how silly I sound. I think my points went over your head since, 1) you thought I was talking to you personally, and 2) you didn't understand I was citing previous failures and mistakes proven out in other MMOs.

    In the end, the only thing that will make you unique is your actual personality and how you perform in the game. Simply being an oddball race/class combo doesn't show individuality, it just shows an oddball race/class combo that shouldn't exist within the lore established by the game. I'm surprised you're equating the two.
  18. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I just find it funny that there are arguments about an Aurin being unable to be a warrior because they are a scrawnier race. okay fine pretty much all Aurin I've seen have been female so far but that male looked pretty feral on the races page, probably about the size of a human. Also we are arguing this point in a game where a Granok Male who is 2x the size of the female but yet will presumably have the exact same starting attributes and be just as strong as she is, so is size really seem like a limiting factor in this game? Granoks can't be stalkers cuz they are so big and noisy?, but I'd wager at least a female Granok would weigh less than a male Mechari, heck both metal and rock are pretty heavy but I wouldn't be surprised if even the female Mechari was bigger and noisier than a male Granok.

    I respect both sides opinions but it seems they are already putting gameplay ahead of lore in these instances. Personally I'd like to see them open it up at least in the future or restrict humans too, cuz really it's a bit silly that we can always be everything.
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  19. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'm not looking to be an oddball for its own sake. Hell, I don't even know if I'd want to roll something like Granok esper (mostly because I'm hoping the undead race, whatever it is, can be espers, because I've got an amazing character concept in mind for that kind of thing). But the option should be there.

    You didn't actually cite previous failures. You just made statements of exaggeration that had nothing to do with my argument - i.e. asking that all races have access to all classes is in no way related to all races starting in the same initial zone, or with the same backstory, or with no racially-defining abilities. You call up lore as some holy book while failing to realize that lore is malleable. Lore can be whatever the heck Carbine wants it to be. Perhaps you can't think of a potential explanation for (to use the example I pulled out of my ass a while ago) granok espers, but any writer worth their salt should be able to. Even I can, and I'm really not that great of a writer.

    Granok have a thing called the Way of Stone. It's what got our guy Stonebreaker exiled from his home planet because he broke from it, earning himself that surname in the process. It's a cultural philosophy that teaches simplicity in everything - living close to the earth, shunning technology that would take you away from this closeness. It's actually very similar to asceticism and has parallels to the teachings of Guatama Buddha. The latter involves a great deal of mental discipline, which is required for becoming an esper. It's quite possible that there could be a sect of Granok who take the Way of Stone to a very devout, almost spiritual degree - becoming for all intents and purposes living rocks, for all that the rest of the universe moves them. Dominating their own mental will would be a part of that discipline, and they could either develop the practices of esper on their own, or perhaps integrate these ideas from another culture (such as the Aurin, who, being rather close to nature themselves, I imagine may get along on an instinctive level with these people).

    There you have it. It didn't even take me very long to sketch out an idea. It keeps in mind the cultural heritage of the species in question while developing and expanding it to what I think is a rather interesting end.
  20. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    The Granok of Gnox practice a simple, stoic philosophy known as the Way of Stone.

    But be that as it may, if enough people want more racial/class combinations post-release in either update content or expansion content, Carbine will make it happen. The outcry has to be there from a large majority of the player base, however.

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