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Ranged Tanking, is it Possible?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by BlindSear, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It's really hard to say how it will work out, but I'm hoping it doesn't just feel like a melee tank with a ranged weapon. While I understand it's a possibility, it would just be disappointing, with all the creativity and genius at Carbine.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I see what you're saying, but it's unlikely that each raid group wouldn't have at least 1 of each of the classes. This is only a problem really with 25 man and 10 man raiding having more possibilities of class specs than raid spots, forcing compositions. Even so a 10 man has to decide how many MDPS can come and how many RDPS are needed. Being that at least 2 tanks are needed and 3 healers with 1 having a DPS OS, you have the option of carrying 5 dps.

    On the other hand with 6 classes and each having 2 different roles, there's only 12 class/role combinations. This means that with 20 spots open saying "you need a ranged tank" is forcing compositions as much as "you need 2 tanks" to a 10 man raid. I believe the interrupt armor will also add in the necessity of CC per second or CCPS builds, which could be the off-spec for tanks.

    Long and the short of it is, I respectfully disagree.
  3. Hambledurger

    Hambledurger New Cupcake

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    I think you have a good point, especially since they have said they want every class to be able to DPS and are planning on having large raids.

    I guess I'm just hoping that they wouldn't entirely exclude a certain role (in this example, melee tank) but with the way they are planning the limited action sets maybe they wouldn't be useless, just not MT.

    You've got a good idea with an the interrupt armor, maybe a viable/necessary spec will be one designed to put out CC's instead of damage. That way the off tank is still important without being required to go DPS. CC is the new support.
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  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    There are some people who strictly like to tank, but I think that's because it's not exactly a good feeling to be the hero of the group (only person standing toe to toe with the big baddie) to a sub-par dps (if even that). If there's anyone that falls in this category let me know your thoughts on it and why you tank, I'd like to know so I'm not just using words that have nothing to back them.

    On the other hand if they go from a tank to hard hitting CC, it may feel better. Also, if it's required of each raid group to have (at least) 3 people ready to tank (one from each class) this would make tanks used to the idea of switching out and doing other roles. Might be an interesting dynamic, and drastically change fights depending on what class is tanking.
  5. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is true, but I feel that not all of the boss moves will be straight telegraphs. I don't think Carbine will completely take away targeted attacks. I guess they could do something where if the main aggro holder is x meters away then use ranged attacks for base/auto attacks while still using the regular telegraphs. But that would mean that every boss would need at least 2 different move sets. That seems a little much to me. The reason for needing 2 is because if the bosses do switch to a ranged attack mode to match the tank, then they would need to drop as much movement telegraphs on the ranged tank and melee as it would normally do if there was a melee tank. Simply because if there wasn't then all raids would take a ranged tank for their MT.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Melee bosses will still fight at melee range, just ranged tanks will take more damage from them. Or perhaps the boss has a charge/stun if the tank gets too far from it, that way the boss couldn't be held outside its range of attack without serious consequences. Also, why can't bosses have ranged attacks (telegraph or not), the telegraph system simply makes melee dps used to movement at all times (or often) during combat. So, along with thoughts on large raid sizes and small class/role combinations, WS can simply force groups to have 1 of each type of tank (which is 3 players, relatively small versus 20 players for the smaller size). It also doesn't create a need to have a huge number of that class, yet allows for plenty of room for compositions. In current game models with many class/role combinations and few raid slots this would not work out, because it forces every team to have similar compositions.
  7. Oziriz

    Oziriz New Cupcake

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    I think both style of tanks should be able to do both scenarios. So a melee tank can ranged tank and a ranged tank can melee tank. 1 is just better at the one thing then the other. That way both tanks are viable for every scenario, just a little better then the other in certain situations but not to the point where you can't do content because you don't have the "right" tank with you!
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  8. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    To those that say we didn't have any ranged based tank yet in any MMO:)

    Anarchy Online had a Ranged based tank, The soldier.

    Its defenses came from a high health combined with deflection shields to reduce incoming dmg. Mind you AO had a lot of out of the box class concepts and while the soldier was mostly a damage dealer class it could be turned into a tank as it's high damage made it so you could build up enough hate to maintain the target threat.
  9. Dean Fry

    Dean Fry Cupcake

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    Ranged Tanking Theory

    Passive Traits
    Marathon: Increases duration of Sprint by X%.
    Out of Harms Way: Recharge Rate of Dodge increased by X%.
    Distraction: Generate X amount of threat every Y seconds while in combat.

    Skills
    Anti-Gravity Grapple-Hook: Grabs the target and throws it behind the player, interrupting the foe.
    High-Pitch Sound Bomb: Generate max threat on every foe within the telegraph. May cause Fear.
    Gravity Mine: Increases Gravity within the target area when stepped on, interrupting the foe and roots it for X seconds. Expires 60 seconds after activation.
    Electric Cage: Every foe within the telegraph is stunned for X seconds. Bosses are only interrupted.
    Impact Shield: Absorb up to X hits and fire it back at the foe, causing the player to go Y yards backwards.
    Hologram: Dodge in any direction, leaving a Hologram behind that has X health and copies your current threat x2.
    Dash: Movement speed increased by X% for Y seconds. Cannot use Sprint for X seconds after activation.



    Some ideas I thought up, what do you guys think?
  10. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well eventually it would be just a tank that uses a rifle instead of a 2hander or sword&board, because most bosses will still be melee and will get into melee range on the tank.

    A true ranged tank would be possible if most mobs would be ranged as well.
  11. Laban

    Laban Cupcake-About-Town

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    Having a ranged tank that focuses on dodging, kiting and sprinting away from the mobs while dealing damage and generating threat with range attacks might sound fun, I think it would be a nightmare for the DPS and healer. Having to land all your AoE telegraphs on moving targets might not be too hard if you're in a cordinated group, but probably wont be that easy when you're playing with randoms. It also depends if the combat system allows free movement while using abilites or if you're sort of locked in place like in TERA for example, then it would be royal pain as a melee trying to deal damage to targets that are running all over the place.

    I think I'd even prefer SWTOR's version of "ranged tanks" over that, even though Powertechs and the Republic equivalent were basically just played as normal melee tanks but with some ranged abilites.
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    The melee classes all seem to be able to move while using abilities. In an interview (don't know source off top of head) Carbine pointed out ranged abilities on esper and spellslinger could do roughly the same thing. It was only the heavy hitting charge attacks that caused a temporary rooting, as a risk/reward mechanic.

    You can see some of this in the PAX East vid. At the end an Aurin Esper is fighting three robots and it seemed pretty fluid. Anyone from Arkship able to comment on if healing seemed similar?
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I mean by going on what Gaffney said about end game PvE content, they don't mind making it hard. If it's too hard for randoms, it seems like that's ok. Also, healers will have to lead their targets out of the damage telegraphs, or if your group just stands there, you can get very effective heals on them, because they're stationary. Patrician mentioned this at one point in one of the healing threads. So, I think the "ranged tank" will be movement and kiting heavy. But with how the game looks, movement is usual in combat, and forces players to play better and promotes teamwork. This is a good thing. If you don't want to play as a team, then there's interesting solo gameplay for endgame too.
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  14. Laban

    Laban Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I get what you mean. But lets say we have a Warrior tank, he will gather the mobs/boss and do his thing, while he and the rest of the party actively moves out of damage telegraphs and positions themselves good enough for the healer(s) to be able to use their healing/support telegraphs as good as possible. And then we have a ranged tank, who on top of all that will be running around with mobs on his tail while everyone else trying to do their stuff on constantly moving targets. It just seems like that would be overcomplicating the fights and you'd be better off with just a standard melee tank, it would make the fight less chaotic and much easier if you're clearing a lot of stuff with AoE abilites. I understand that even as a melee tank it's crucial to dodge out of the way from enemy telegraphs, so fights will still be very movement and position based, but not more than they'd have to be with a ranged tank for example.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, for dungeons, it's likely any tank will be able to do the job. But with large raid sizes and CC per second being important to break boss's interrupt armor, it's likely that a raid will have all 3 tanks on deck, and need each type of tank for different fights. They have stated that they want raiding to be hardcore, which means you're going to need niche things. It's likely the ranged tanks will lend themselves to some fights, while the other two will not.

    Also, it would be easier for a healer to "lead" a tank moving at a constant speed, than it would for them to heal one that dodges on a random frequency. There probably are fights that any tank is an acceptable answer, but some where you really need AoE slows, and ranged AoE threats. Of course with the limited action sets, it may even come down to having tanky dpsers, and dps-y tanks. Also, if there were mobs and bosses which attack at range, melee tanks are just bad against them for holding threat and getting them to move (quickly). I think the ranged tank won't be a true ranged tank, in that it's always at ranged, but a regular tank with a gun that's better for ranged tanking. That is, if there's a ranged tank, we still don't know what the last 2 classes are going to be.

    You can't think about Wildstar like any other game, because it's attempting to be hardcore and not cater to those who can't get the skills, and the action combat is going to punish those who can't learn to dodge. This will mean random groups will fail without teamwork, and that there's a whole new set of rules for group PvE. The new rules are, adapt, get better, or fail. Since the raiding is going to be hardcore, the dungeons can be tuned to be harder, as it's no longer required for endgame.

    Edit: It took me a while to wrap my head around how the action oriented combat really does change the whole mechanics of the game. Kiting really won't feel like kiting to the rest of the group.
  16. Woody

    Woody New Cupcake

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    It would be interesting, and something fresh.
  17. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have a tank specced bounty hunter in ToR the first tank I've ever rolled in any MMO over the course of a decade and this class has quickly become my most favorite for pve as well as pvp.

    I do like squaring off with dungeon bosses but, I also think protecting your group particularly the healer is an integral part of a good team and a good challenge keeping track of adds amidst the chaos.
    If a tank is doing his job taunting and maintaining agro while mitigating damage then everyone else's job is that much easier.

    This translates to pvp also I lost track of how many warzones were won because opponents completely ignored the objective because they were focused on killing a tank that wasn't going down easy. So great survivability in pvp. :up:
    Also in my experience so far damage is still pretty good for this particular brand of tank and unlike a melee tank who can be slowed & kited a ranged tank can still attack.

    I like this class because its useful, effective and flexible and I hope Carbine introduces something similar in one of the final class reveals with a WildStar twist.
  18. Surge

    Surge New Cupcake

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    I agree, some fights might be a little better than others with range or melee but both should be fine depending on your style.
  19. Turtlesrun

    Turtlesrun New Cupcake

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    all in all I would just say that having ranged tanks is not exactly an new thing but it has not been done very well because of how wildstar is ment to be a active moving game I could defo see a place where ranged tanks will be required instead of the standard brick walls which I love.

    Agreed that this would make DMG bosses harder and also healers challenges more but guess what Team WS have said they want raiding to be hard, and the combat is based on a lot of movement so I don't think ranged tanking is gonna be a problem it might even turn out to be the solution to a lot of fights IMO.
  20. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    No one has ever heard of that game though, so I am afraid it doesn't count. :)

    Ranged Tanking is not possible!
    More news @11

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