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Ranged Tanking, is it Possible?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by BlindSear, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    That phrasing is wrong, since even WoW have implemented ranged tanking encounters.
    Is it not possible to designe a tank solely for ranged tanking? Maybe not, but making it a class's strong suit is possible if the content is designed with such a class in mind.
  2. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Obviously I meant as a core mechanic in the game.
    The encounters in WoW were tanked by DPS.

    A priest can tank a lowbie dungeon, but we don't say he is a tank just because there is a small niche that exists where it is kind of true.
  3. Starspieler

    Starspieler New Cupcake

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    You have to look at the way the game is build in order to determine how a role will fit into the game. The Proposed role is that of a Ranged Tank Class.


    Here are some questions that I asked myself in regard to this topic

    Raid Size
    WS will have both 20 and 40 man raids. In a 40 man raid you can normally expect between 5-8 tanks, while the 20 man versions will require 2-4. Taking this into consideration one can imagine that the sub roles of tanking will have to intertwine at some point. eg. The 1-3 tanks take turns in holding the aggro of the main target (boss) while the rest are split up managing adds of different shapes and sizes. Now how can you balance this interaction between the different tank compositions in your raid? (mTanks only, rTanks or Mix)

    Tank incoming damage
    How does the a tank character deal with incoming damage. Does he soak it?, mitigate it? avoid it through stats or through movement? How will this be different for a rTank over a mTank? How does this affect the healers?

    How tanking effects Raid DPS output
    The way the Tanks control the enemies will determine how and if the DPSrs deal dmg. Does kitting an enemy change the way mDPSs has to behave?, what about the rDPS? If a mTank makes the boss create unfriendly telegraphs for mDPS does a rTank create rDPS unfriendly ones? Do mTanks promote stacking rDPS? How does this change the dps tuning of different roles?

    After answering these questions for myself and based on a lot of assumptions I came to the conclusion that balancing will be impossible between mTanks and rTanks. This will lead to 2nd rate classes that have to sit on the bench because they made a wrong decision at the start of the game.
  4. Grimnar40k

    Grimnar40k Cupcake-About-Town

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    Shotguns do tons of damage at very close range, not so much at longer ranges. I could see a potential range dps/tank class specializing in a similar style gun for tanking. The range tanks in SWTOR had range of 10 yards I think for tanking? I thought it was a really cool idea and worked well.

    They also use gadgets like flamethrowers, rockets, grenades, etc etc. Range tank doesn't mean they only use 40 yard range guns. Now in their dps role maybe they do.
  5. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is a good thought. Reminds me of The Secret World.
    But didn't they say that every class only gets one weapon?

    Then again, antique guns and cannons used to have different ammo for different occasions.
  6. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    WoW used DPS classes as the game wasn't designed with ranged tanks in mind but it proves the mechanics are possible. SWtoR did have it in mind but didn't follow through on it.
    The two turrets in the beginning of Eternity Vault is a great example, vanguards/bountyhunters can keep aggro on them where the other tanks have problems as you can't get in melee range.
  7. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the concept of a ranged tank is flawed, it cannot be balanced when there is melee tanks. Star Wars: The Old Republic tried to do it and failed miserably, World of Warcraft had fights with a ranged tank but it was a ranged dps for specific phases of a fight.
    teh_ninjaneer likes this.
  8. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    Like others have said I think you need to build the game up from teh floor with ranged tanks in mind.

    Just unrealisitc to balance a game around 1 class not taking melee auto attacks from bosses.
  9. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    If design the game with a tank as 100% range, I agree that it most likely can't be done. A more realistic design would be to have all tanks melee, but giving one of the tanks two to three times the range abilities as the other tanks, so one class can somewhat hold agro while in range (but still being most effective in melee).

    The biggest problem is to balance the content so you can actually benefit from the range tank without excluding the other tanks.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, I can see each tank having at least 2 base builds, one being "main tanking" or tanking the main boss, then another build is for add tanking. I can imagine the melee tanks as a more mobile main tank, then a more stationary form of add tanking. On the other hand a ranged tank would be turret style for the main tanking, and kiting for the add tanking, possibly have casting for the ranged tank. So I can imagine a myriad of ways each tank would shine during given mechanics, and be at a disadvantage for others.

    For instance a ranged boss would be easier to move and tank as a ranged tank, while a movement heavy boss may mean that the ranged tank's casting mitigations make it difficult, while a stalker can easily deal with the mechanics.
  11. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Technically you are right. Juggernauts/Sentinels could force leap up there and Sins/Shadows could just cast lightning. Vanguards/Powertechs were not designed as ranged tanks since they didn't have multiple knockbacks or distance makers. They were melee tanks with guns.


    The problem, as has been stated before, is that a true ranged tank would only be viable in a turret style boss fight. One where it is impossible to get close to the boss itself, but that kills your melee dps. They now need to clean up adds, if there are any, or just sit there and diddle themselves. If every boss could be ranged tanked, meaning that physics and CC worked on them, then there would be no reason to bring melee tanks. If by your, BlindSear, example a ranged tank would be turreting (new word, I like it) they would need considerable amounts of knockbacks and slows to help maintain up time on a boss or whomever they are tanking.(See above for problem there)

    Ranged tanks could be an awesome concept. There would need to be designated ranged bosses, but there are 2 issues there too. What would melee do? If a boss is supposed to be tanked from range, then conceivably there is too much stuff going on in melee or it isn't reachable. The other one would be that there would, and I believe they have confirmed this(please correct if I'm wrong), a way to swap talent/LAS sets to be able to go from tank->DPS->heals.
  12. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is a lot of things melee could do in an encounter with they can't be in melee of the boss: Having a flying boss that spawns several adds that melee have to burn down to not get over-run, tave two or more bosses where only one does major damage in melee range or having a shorter critical phase where you need to move out/spread etc.

    In bigger groups it would fit right in, problem would be smaller groups.
  13. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I loved the Alysrazor fight, but not every fight can be like that. Same thing not every fight can be like Twin Emperors. If there were to be 1-2 bosses in a raid that were like that and there was a way to switch specs, then yes totally it would be viable to bring a long a ranged tank and have him specced DPS then switch tank and MT/OT to DPS. As you stated the problem lies mainly in the small groups. 5 man dungeons wouldn't be able to have a boss like that because it would kill that dungeon for groups, since you would need to bring a specific group to clear it.
  14. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    Considering that a tank's primary job is to take the brunt of incoming damage while the rest of the group does their thing, and that all tanks will have to be very mobile due to emphasis on the telegraph system, yes, they very likely will just be melee tanks with a gun.

    I'm not really sure why people are expecting them to focus on kiting every boss. Not only is that hard to design, but the rest of the raid (particularly large raids where at least half the DPS will be melee-oriented) will be pretty miffed if the boss is constantly on the move.

    So sure, I have no doubt that they'll have some kiting abilities (which pretty much comes down to some kind of slow or snare ability), but situations where that's the dominant means of tanking will be far and few between.
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  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    First, the need for a "true ranged tank" isn't necessary. The only thing that's needed is a tank that CAN tank at range, not one that HAS TO tank at range. This would be more natural. So the idea is that they are good for certain fights, due to their ability to tank at range (from being able to literally attack from a distance) or their ability to attack and kite. So really they'd be a hybrid tank, just one that generally uses ranged abilities. So, you need to think of it more of a ranged class with the ability to tank. Ranged classes don't always attack at range, (especially during levelling) they simply can attack at range. A tank class would be similar in this way. It's not necessary to make them force opponents and bosses to stay at range.


    So, ranged bosses would be one that has a ranged attack, but still needs to be moved. It would still be possible for a melee tank to do this, but it would be much easier for a ranged tank to do so. This is because a melee tank would first have to LoS the boss or run to the edge of the boss's attack range then the boss would start moving. This means the ranged tank would be preferable to this type of fight, but not necessary. So, it's not about forcing players away from melee range, but incentivizing a tank that has the ability to stay at a distance.

    As for the swapping out LAS for role swapping, this doesn't matter as much, because you still have to swap gear to be able to do something else. Depending on how hard it is to gear up, and how quickly gear is given, and how often gear needs to be a chipped, it may mean that players are only expected to have one set of gear for each type of content, and we don't expect tanks to carry around a dps set and a tanking set. This would mean you don't have tanks that swap between a tank role and a dps role, but more of a tank role and a CC role with some damage.

    I highly doubt we'll see a ranged tank that forces a gap and holds that gap between mobs, but one that's able to tank ranged mobs.
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah, the importance of course comes in for raiding, because with dungeons you only have 1 tank possibility and all tanks have to be viable for all bosses.
  17. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, that only proves encounters can be made with ranged tanking in mind.
    But unless ALL encounters are made that way, which is bad design imo, then the ranged tank isn't going to be as viable as a regular melee tank.
    I mean think about it? Who would want to be a ranged tank when you are only good at tanking 1 boss per tier?
    That is just <REDACTED>. :(
  18. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    All true and that is the way Vans/PTs worked in SWTOR. I bring up the point of a true ranged tank because the tank that uses a gun ended up feeling the exact same as the meat shield tanks, at least those did. That could have been Bioware's doing. To me having a tank that uses a gun and fights in melee is no different than the regular tanks.

    Now if they fall into the rythym that WoW had in BC/early Lich, where the tanks each played/fufilled a different type of tank role, that would be awesome. Druids were the dodge tank, warriors the meat shields, and pallies were the ultimate scooping adds tank(mainly because of their HAMMAH!). If Carbine were to do something like that, where warriors were more adept at face tanking, stalkers are the more mobile tanks, and the third tank, be it staff or rifle, are the more scooping tank. Each can fulfill all roles, but they have a little more utility in their respective roles.
  19. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never said they shouldn't be viable in melee, it would be like making a tank that can only tank one mob at a time. As well as a DPS can can respec to be able to tank 1 boss, why shouldn't a tank be able to respec to increase the ranke on some of his tanking abilities. A ranged tank would also be good for adds as they can pick more of them up from a larger distance than the other tanks.

    This is what I'm talking about! One tank is stronger than the other tankes in one area but still viable as tanks in every other area.
  20. achesoma

    achesoma Cupcake

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    I think people are WAY over thinking this lol. With the LAS the key tanking abilities could be at closer range. As balancing goes, warrior and stalker have ranged abilities per beta patch notes. So a rifle tank is very possible.

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