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Remember old-school Alterac Valley from WoW?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Viper, May 25, 2013.

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Are you ready for an old-school AV re-imagined in WildStar?

  1. Yes

    73.3%
  2. No

    16.0%
  3. Don't care either way

    10.7%
  1. Viper

    Viper New Cupcake

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    I think the world is ready for such a thing happening again and what better place than in WildStar?

    For those not in the know, old-school Alterac Valley (AV) was a place where people actually fought each other.
    You had the ability to spawn big things to help you and other sub-objectives, like holding mines, returning loot from dead players to spawn flying birds that would attack players and so on.
    The most glorious thing was that a single instance of AV could go on for days because the fighting just kept happening and shifted back and forward.

    In all honesty it was probably the best battleground ever made in recent MMO’s (at least the ones I’ve tried). But for some reason Blizzard kept making it worse and worse, ending up with a PvP battleground where nobody would PvP and just run past each other to try and kill the end NPC before the others. Awesome design right there...

    So why not make a re-imagined version of old-school AV in WildStar? The world is ready and a lot of people fondly remember the old-school AV and the current trend in battleground design doesn’t seem to allow for such a thing happening. But we want it. It was glorious.

    Now one of the controversial parts about old-school AV was that it had a lot of PvE in it, which is always sort of a hot topic in regard to PvP. Now I’m one to usually argue that we should leave as much PvE out of PvP as possible, but on the other hand it has its place.
    For one thing it can make PvP more dynamic and random when PvE usually gets introduced, because suddenly someone gets aggro from something and the fight changes. This makes PvP more intestering in different aspects.

    First off you have to dance around potential mobs to avoid aggroing them, while possibly trying to force you opponent(s) into a position where they draw aggro.
    Should you aggro you have to adapt to this threat and likely alter your way of fighting, possibly trying to switch the aggro to your opponent(s), killing the mob or ignore it if possible.
    Should your opponent(s) aggro you suddenly have to take targeting and abilities you use into account to try and not draw the aggro (for instance not using AoE abilities).

    Basically the entire dynamic of a fight can change because of this outside random factor. It really makes for far more entertaining fights when you throw in the unknown of random.
    Likewise the PvE in AV gave people not THAT interested in PvP a way to contribute to the battle as well, although to a lesser degree (and I would say it should be kept like that, the focus should of course still be PvP).

    For instance Korrak jumping down in the middle of Field of Strife (the middle of the battleground) made the first big encounter really interesting as the forces clashed together and people were trying to manage, dodge and otherwise handle this beast as the PvP was going on as well.
    Now he also did drop loot which made tagging him interesting (it wasn’t super impressive loot, as far as I recall (but I might recall wrong)) and I’m not sure on my stance on that. It might both be interesting as there’s a reason to try and be the ones killing him, but on the other hand it might make the PvE element a bit too heavy. It’s something that should be tested, I guess.

    One of the big things regarding getting out of situation where you’re pushed back was getting enough blood (for the horde at least) which dropped from killed players when you looted them. By turning this in you could eventually get your shamans (or druids on alliance side) to go down to Field of Strife where a big NPC could be spawned to help you. The NPC’s would need to be protected but were still quite powerful, as they should be. And when they reached their spot players would have to help in summoning the thing, which also took a bit of time. It really was an awesome mechanic, despite being PvE related, that helped turn the tide and just keep the fighting going.

    I’m sure the developers are well aware of the old-school AV, if not I will explain further of course, but for now I’ll leave it at this.

    My suggestion is simply to build a battleground based around massive combat (minimum 40vs40) with sub-objectives (mostly revolving around killing players) that would change the battle as people got things spawned and so on. Likewise being able to upgrade guards and such was also interesting, but could possibly be skipped.

    But most important thing is to allow it to go on for however long it will take. Don’t create it with the aim that it should be completed within 1 hour, 2 hours or whatever... If it will last for days, it will last for days. You know how awesome it was to log into the AV you left the day before? It was awesome.
    And do note it’s not supposed to be persistent. It needs to have a clear victory condition and end when that’s achieved.

    Now for this to properly work the battleground rewarding should be maintained and given even if the player isn’t in the battleground when it ends. Hell, the player doesn’t even have to be online.
    Basic rewarding could possibly happen when you leave the battleground (or it ends) and you’re rewarded with your contribution.

    Then if you’re not in it when it ends, you’re rewarded according to the outcome and your overall contribution compared to other players. A nice mail could be sent to your inbox detailing the outcome and what you got out of it, even if you’re offline. Possibly the mail could contain an item with your contribution that you would then use to apply it to your character (probably an easier solution than applying it directly to the character even if it’s offline).

    Your stats should also be maintained, so if you join the battleground again later you will resume at the amounts of kills, deaths and so on.
    I recognize that it’s of course a bit database heavy, but it shouldn’t be that much of an issue to maintain for running battlegrounds of this type. It gets wiped when it ends anyway.

    One thing I’m not entirely sure about was a lot of these sub-objectives rewarding flat bonus points to everyone when taken down. For instance when you killed the NPC ”guarding” Field of Strife (either side of it) or clearing the guard towers... It’s both good and bad (since it means that people can then AFK to get rewarded). So I’m not really going to call judgement on that, but would say I’m probably more for than against. Just make sure the rewards aren’t too big and possibly tie it into contribution as well in some way.

    ANYWAY, enough rambling. I hope there’s more like me out there (I know there is) who long for an old-school AV to resurface in a game.


    The world is ready. We are ready. Make it happen, Carbine. :)
  2. Coblago

    Coblago New Cupcake

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    ew, no thank you. It wasn't all bad, but the FACT that it went on forever was the part I didn't like. I hated being in there all damn night with no sense of completion.
    Risetta likes this.
  3. Mihtjel

    Mihtjel New Cupcake

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    I sort-of liked old-school AV. I think I like it more now than I did then: It was a big grind, the battle going back and forth over the middle of the battlefield, but never getting past the choke-points at either end.

    The reason it lasted for several days was that it was buggy, and completely impossible to win other than having your opponents leave. While I like the idea of some sort of semi-persistent PvP, I don't think that was what AV was designed as.
  4. MrWASDclick

    MrWASDclick Cupcake

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    Sounds kind of like a MOBA to me.

    If Wildstar did have some battle ground that acted kinda like SMITE or Super MNC, I think it could work nicely.
  5. Viper

    Viper New Cupcake

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    Well, it's not for everyone. I mean, AV got changed for a reason. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people loved it back then.
    But to be fair it might be going overboard saying it should last for days.
    So let's say we aim at something that will last for 8 hours (although I can see the difficulty in trying to plan that), but still has the possibility to go on for longer.

    Also it's important to note that you can leave at any time and still get rewarded for your contribution. That's highly important for something like this to work in the current market. Things have changed since old-school AV after all. :)
  6. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I voted yes because I loved the thing. But Jen Gordy says No, so no it is. The longest thing they have planned is the warplots, which I think she said they expect to last maybe an hour. But BGs etc are quite short.
  7. Viper

    Viper New Cupcake

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    No doubt. I don't think Blizzard really knew what they were doing (to a degree) and basically just did a lot of stuff that was potentially cool and could work. Turned out it was actually really great (albeit not perfect). They then decided to "improve" it which made it into the steaming pile it was when I stopped playing (and from what I know still is).

    We need developers who aren't afraid of "letting go" just a little bit. Not set out to control every single little detail and flow of a battleground and instead allow random to take over a bit.
    AV was cool because it wasn't super tightly controlled. Obviously it still had tightly designed systems and such, but it was allowed, due to lack of experience I guess, to turn into this beautiful piece of battleground that hasn't been redone since because devolpers are designing everything so tightly, with too much control and with too short a lifespan (for the battleground).
  8. Kethrym

    Kethrym Well-Known Cupcake

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    I loved the choke points where I could AoE Rain of Fire the Alliance for hours. Sentimental value aside, they went on just a bit too long lol.
  9. WakeskaterX

    WakeskaterX Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh my god... that just gave me a great idea. That would be so cool to have a MOBA BG! You'd have a 5v5 battleground where the goal is to destroy the enemy base by pushing waves into their base.

    You would have to change it up a bit. Perhaps instead of buying items that power up your character you bought buffs or some sort of power kit over the course of the battle. For instance, you start with a power suit that changes in power as you add socketed powerup items. So you could purchase things that increase your run speed, attack power, etc over the course of the battleground just like in a moba. Then your class/path is the type of player you are. It wouldn't be just like Dota/LoL but I think the idea could be applied to a BG. It would make for a super awesome BG imo and something that I don't think I've ever seen in a MMO.

    It could be two robot factories spawning little robots that attack each other and then you have to push them past the enemy defenses. Killing stuff rewards you with energy points or some form of currency that you can use at the base to power up a full body suit you wear only in that BG.

    HA! That would be hella cool.
  10. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    WvWvW in GW2 is kind of similar (without the epic part) in that people play it day and night, and guilds switch off with each other to keep the battle going. It's probably a bit unhealthy the way some people spend all day or all night at it. But I really like having a long, ongoing team battle that I join and leave as time permits.

    Our sever works to recruit guilds from different time zones so that all 24 hours are covered. You don't really get the feeling that what you do matters in quite the same way, if the whole thing is over in 20 minutes.
  11. Bucket

    Bucket New Cupcake

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    I really didn't enjoy AV and was one of the main reasons i left WoW. I enjoy open space and random encounters a lot more then scripted BGs. I guess i was spoiled from DAoC and Ultima Online
    Kethrym likes this.
  12. Zero713

    Zero713 Cupcake

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    AV was alright. You are right, later on through the updates, the bg turned into run as fast as you can to the final boss and kill before the other team. Not much of a game.

    Guild Wars 2 has some PVE elements in their PVP, and one of my favorites is the Forest of Niflhel. In this map there are forest guardian type NPCs. One on each sideof the map for each team. The teams earn points by controlling areas on the map, but the forest NPCs are also worth a good amount of points for killing them. So not only are players fighting to control points, but each team must keep track of respawn and try to kill the forest NPC when they come back. This adds an element of strategy because whatever team gets the killing blow gets credit for the kill.

    This sets up some groups sending people immediately to try and kill the opposing teams npc, waiting to ambush the team and steal a kill, or just massive zergs. The NPCs are worth enough points to change the outcome of a battle if the other team is sloppy and doesn't worry about killing them. I really like this map as the element of strategy and timing the NPCs add is great. I can't tell you how many amazing matches I've had playing that map. So many close games.

    Another solid map with almost the same concept is Legacy of the Foefire. Each side has a wall and a king inside. Control points and attempt to kill the other teams king. Killing the king has to be done at the right time or risk getting three capped, or just failing to kill him and losing control of points. Its pretty fun and helps to add strategy to the killing.
  13. Menchi

    Menchi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I loved the old-school AV. It was actually pretty rare to see an AV match last more than a few hours, but it was epic nonetheless. Certainly better than the mounted race it is these days. Yuck.

    I'm not opposed to PvE in my PvP, as long as it serves both a challenge and a purpose. We already know we're getting a bit of this in warplots. Defeating raid bosses to capture them and store them in your Warplot? Yes please!

    One thing I do hate in regards to PvP is when devs cave-in to the, for lack of a better term, casuals, and start placing artificial timers that limit the players. (Arenas possibly being an exception, but they still better have potential to last a long while.) It's the lack of timers that really helps to make a match competitive. The new AV is the perfect example of how NOT to use timers. It undermined the purpose of building up resources to summon elites and other fun stuff.
  14. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Old AV had the problem of taking too long

    New AV had the problem of taking no time at all, and therefore having no real PvP element. It was ''who can rush the boss the fastest?''

    If they would remake AV but let it take around 1h-1.5h then i'm happy. While alot of people loved AV so did alot of people hated it. IT was never ending and could become boring rather fast. 5hours of the same BG is a bit over the top. But 1 to 1.5 hours can still be nice.

    Also those PvE elements in some big-ass BG's should be manditory! What's no to like about them? Also the Warplots also got some kind of PvE elements in them. So Carbine takes the right path with that.

    I vote yes, but only if it wouldn't take more then 2 hours max!
  15. Metasine

    Metasine New Cupcake

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    Why are we talking about wow in the wildstar forums? Seriously.
  16. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Devs already said they have no plans for an AV like experience (something I support) so it's really a moot point.
  17. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would love a proper AV style battleground, but as Inv1cted said, they have already stated they have no intention of making one. I'm afraid the days of battling for hours straight (played 8 hours straight in an AV during my rank 14 grind and that was mild compared to other servers) in a single battleground are over in modern MMOs.

    If they designed an open world area (no flying allowed) with chokepoints and several important areas within it that "required" people to be there regularly, we could possibly get a 24/7 vanilla AV style feeling without needing a battleground. A "Valley of Quel'Danas" would be really cool. ;)
  18. Absolute

    Absolute Cupcake

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    As much as I liked AV in Classic WoW and beyond, I voted "No".

    Why did I do that?

    Because sticking to the past is one of the Major Flaw a human can do in his lifetime here on this planet. If you want to suffer, go for it. Why suffer? Because you will obviously never ever get an AV no.2. But you will say, oh of course we can. And here you hope for it and hope for it and will be disappointed when it does not happen.

    Are you actually aware what you do to other people with such an attitude? Especially to artists like game-devs?

    First of all, the pressure is enormous to fulfill your needs of a second AV. It is impossible to create the exact same setup in a different location (obviously) to get a 1:1 emotional copy of what we once had.

    Second, when you encounter people in your RL with such an attitude, you compare what you once had and project that idea on a completely new person who then has to fulfill your crazy idea of what you collected as memory and can not accept that everything IS new from this moment into the endless future.

    This attitude really is self-destructive and I advice you, for your own mental and physical health to drop this attitude immediatelly and EMBRACE EVERYTHING NEW that the next moment will bring.

    Amen.

    Now please, go GO learn! for gods sake :)
  19. Aari

    Aari Cupcake-About-Town

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    I always kinda enjoyed the Classic AV and all the different things you could do in there.

    But I think for large Scale PvP we got the Warplots wich will hopefully have great tactic aspects for PvP and will be a huge and awesome battle.

    I read in an interview I saw on reddit that the Devs have allready stated that they do not want a Battleground that will last for Hours or even days so its rather unlikely that we will see something as big as AV is.
  20. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Because Wildstar is WoW in space, like it or not, and a large portion of the devs at Carbine where responsible for creating WoW.

    WoW is also the benchmark for success when it comes to MMO's , and you will quite often find Jeremy Gaffney also talking about WoW and how he wants to beat it for the number 1 spot.

    And in case you did not notice this thread is about the recreation of Alterac Valley which was a Battleground in WoW, So stop hating, people have good reason to talk about WoW. Seriously.

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