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Rezzed and the Un-answered Question

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Tekzzz, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. Tekzzz

    Tekzzz New Cupcake

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    Hello Wildstar Community!

    Recently we saw a developer session at Rezzed with a demo of the game and some Q&A with the developers.

    This post directly aims at one question a guy in the audience asked and, which I believe, was not truly answered properly.

    The question was 'Is there anything in Wildstar to give more inscentive for people to play healers and tanks like the gift bag in WoW LFG' (essentially the question, not 100% perfect quote)

    The answer given was along the lines of how the chracter can duel spec to play DPS/Healer for example, but to me thats a given.

    Maybe it's me looking too far into it but I got to thinking about the holy trinity (DPS/Tank/Heal) and how there are more DPS than anything. Here is what I came up with.

    The Players Choice:

    What role should we play and why? here are my theories on why people are drawn to their respective roles:

    Tank: From my experience with tanks, these are usually the guys who like to be in control of the fight, moving bosses and adds. It is the most (generally) underated of the roles, a good tank can make a difference and a bad one can cause wipes. From experience of having some of the best tanks in the world raid with me it is usually the most precise job and requires the most CONSISTENT skill. I say consistant because they are the only role, I have found, which cannot slack in any scenario. Also they are the centre of attention in the raid, they lead, we follow.

    DPS: They smack guys around with weapons (and fists if you like pandas). They cast spells and more importantly mash their boards into oblivion to get numbers. This is in no way an easy position, but then again it is not the most difficult thing to pull off. To overview the entirety of DPS is too long for this post, there is such difference between stat weights, melee vs ranged, fight mechanics that change dps etc. So to keep it short I find the top DPS guys are usually the number crunchers, they are always trying to get the biggest numbers. It is the most competitive role in the raid as your performance can be monitored by numbers. I'd also like to take this opportunity to make an irrelevant statement about the easiness of dps. The argument can go on forever about whether its easy or not to be a dps or if they do less work than the other roles... but the only constant factor we can rely on is... that Arcane mages during cataclysm was not hard... it was the easiest thing ever invented in the history of WoW and anyone who actually tried to justify the arcane mage as a complex class at that point in time is wrong. :)

    Healer: This is something I have a lot of experience with and can really give a proper opinion on. The reason I chose healer was plain and simple... there is a lot of freedom. With DPS you find priority rotations ways to get high numbers etc. With healing there is no 'set' rotation. It is safe to say eventually it becomes plain and obvious which spells to use for certain situations, but I still feel there is so much freedom in terms of healing combos, reactive and pro-active healing, raid/single target healing etc. It was the least confined role for me and i've always loved doing it... plus we always get blamed for deaths so be nice to us or you might find yourself without health.


    Answer:

    Apologies for the waffle but here goes my answer.

    Why is there more dps than any other role? Because it is the most logical thing to do for entertainment.

    I know... i've lost you... let me explain:

    Lets look a raid setup of 25 people, the different scenarios (in my opinion) I can forsee are as follows:

    Majority DPS: you have what we have now, few healers and one or two tanks and you have a decent fight with a big boss health pool to burn through, some decent numbers to heal and a few adds to keep threat on with some tank swapping thrown in.

    Majority Healers: So lets look at what changes if we have majority healers. It implys the fight requires more healing and less DPS. Logically speaking this pans out to be one short fight... if you make it majority healers it will be constant healing output and a short dps output due to healer restrictions such as mana, CDs etc. It just makes no sense to have majority healers (although wouldnt mind a few constant output heal fights)

    Majority Tanks: This, in my mind, is the funniest scenario. Imagining a raid you needed lots of tanks, few healers and few dps. The same applies again that it would be short fights due to the need to lots of tanks and few dps, little healing to do. But the best part is probably the fact you would need about 100 targets to facilitate the need for so many tanks... imagine the clusterf**k of a room that would be... so much lag but then again... how funny it would look for the kill screenshot.

    So in conclusion, if you look at MMO PvE logically, if we didnt do majority DPS raids like it is usually done were looking at some seriously short fights, or (if you wanna be that hardcore) some 15 hour long fights with one lonely stalker slapping the boss about. The length and machanics of a fight are directly determinant of what majority role is in the raid. (I really hope that all made sense outside my head)

    The Guy's Question:

    Simply put... are there inscentives for other roles.

    I for one do not care if there inscentives or not, the class you play is derivitive of your playstyle and what you enjoy... a silly mount in a bag will not change that for me.

    I honestly believe this question is aimed at the casual players (not that I am kickstarting of an argument against the casuals) it basically is another inscentive for people to 'switch it up'

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind people changing roles, but do we really want to get the the point like WoW where we just reward people for clicking a button, or doing a variety of tank and spank bosses on LFR.

    What attracted me to the game itself was the Devs who spoke so passionately about the MMO, and were not interested in making the game easier for people.

    Lets have a challenge guys! lets go back to spamming in trade chat for healers and tanks... lets make doing a daily dungeon worthwhile again... I really hope they don't bring in LFR and LFG or bag rewards for lack of a role... but you're the community, have your say here!

    Again I would seriously like to apologise for going into so much detail on something, but I do like to get as much detail in as possible to have a good quality debate/discussion about these things with the community.
    Veneska, Gomer, Aheadache and 3 others like this.
  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

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    As I've alluded to elsewhere, I think the reasons people pick dps can be pretty varied, wildstar has a big advantage and a big challenge in my mind.
    Advantage: Every class is a hybrid, so no player can get away from being able to either tank or heal as well as dps.
    Challenge: Make Tanking and Healing look fun enough for everyone to try and making their entry requirements low enough that people trying them out don't fail automatically but equally making the nuances of healing and tanking complex enough to keep people playing the role.
  3. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah sounds like a jack of all trades and a master of none!
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  4. gechos

    gechos Cupcake

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    I watched the session from rezzed and I agree it didnt sound like he gave a full answer but tbh I dont see what sort of answer he could have given as Its kinda a tough one to answer. On one way he could say ye were giving incentives go tank or go heal, but like you said its down to your style of play I for one am planning on rolling a tank class to start with.

    With regards of LFG LFR they have said there is a system either in place or in the works for LFG but there isnt or wont be a LFR at least for launch.

    1 interesting point which ive seen in a video or 2 is (if im getting this right as its more my view of what has been said) you get all the spells and abilities for your class but only the base 8 (i think) slots to put them of so imo that means that the only diff about tanking and dps or healing/dps is the abilities on your bars and the gear your wearing (ofc tanking will be diff stat build to dps). The only "spanner" in the works for me on this view is that they have said there is a milestone system in place (from the video i watched there wasnt much info other than its there) which to me sounds a bit like the current way to spec in WOW so every X lvls you get X points to spend on X ability. Now if this is the case then depending on the way they have the milestone system setup could mean switching between tank and dps wont be as simple as loading a new bar and equiping gear which in someways is a shame. Again this is only my take on what has been said so i could be completely wrong if so im sorry.

    On another note with the way healing is Im very apprehensive about rolling a healer to me it comes across as it will be very hard and a complete ball ache if you got ppl that wont move into the green (you know there will be millions of them in the game as in every game).
  5. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    Personally I like the hybrid approach. Like its been stated before a lot of people find dps to be more fun than healing and tanking and in so many MMOs the ratio of dps to healer and tanker is quite big. This can lead to situation where you might not find enough people to team up with. Large 40 man raids will surely not help here. No one enjoys waiting hours to find a healer.

    If you had specialized roles and you had to stick with just one role it would make the problem worst imho. I wouldnt mind being a healer some of the time for example but if i had to stick to one role I wouldnt pick healer.

    The only downside is you probably have to keep 2 sets of armor and your spec will be optimum for one of the two roles but its still better to have a slightly sub optimal healer then no healer at all right?
  6. Wubzorz

    Wubzorz Cupcake

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    There is always going to be an imbalance.
    There really shouldn't be any other incentive to take the tank/healer role other than the intrinsic reward of fulfilling a more difficult (debatable) role. Also I really feel like the question was somewhat targeted towards the current trend in WoW's LFD/LFR queue system. The reason he may have perceived those roles as 'thankless' is most likely due to cross-realm grouping and the apathetic attitude it inspires.
  7. Hellspawnx

    Hellspawnx Cupcake

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    I dont really have an issue eather way but my one concern is there seems to be a disconnect between panelist. For example in the Rezzed demo the guy doing the Q&A gave the impression that healing was a hybrid role. as though everyone has a role to play as a healer, which too me sounds like a GW2 system. At the Rezzed Q&A he says "Make it less that 1 class is the Tank and that ever class can be more then one role" then he goes to explain about how they dont want players to feel as they are locked into a specific role. But that is what the holy trinity is...

    But then 12 hrs later a developer releases a video show casing some group team work and says that Wildstar is a holy trinity system. So which one is it??? is it a trinity system or is a hybrid system. within less then a week there's some contradictions about what group play actaully is.

    I think wildstar needs to publicly address this ASAP because I cant be the only person noticing the diffrences in explanations about what the group dynamic actaully is, unless I completely missunderstood.

    heres the video that says its a trinity system

    Suppose its possiable that maybe the Q&A guy didnt really understand the question or couldnt form a proper answer to the question. Im not certain but its all over the place.
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  8. Malachi

    Malachi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, it's true that most people would prefer the flashy role of being DPS and getting to be the one who melts faces. (If that's not your thing, then good for you, but that's not the point) I don't know that the solution to this problem is to give incentives to people to play these other roles, though. The solution is to design the game such that content doesn't strictly depend on having dedicated healing or tanking roles.

    This can be accomplished by turning classes into hybrids that can do damage as well as they can heal themselves, which apparently is something that will be done in Wildstar. But because of the limited action set thingamabob, this isn't going to be very effective. If you can only choose from a limited set of abilities, you'll be less inclined to pick survivability abilities over DPS abilities if you know that you don't need them. If you're constantly running group content with someone who took a few extra healing abilities, and he can use those to keep himself and you alive, then why would you want some healing abilities yourself? Ultimately, because of the limited action sets, people will still be pigeon-holed into specific roles.

    The solution to this problem? Let characters use ALL of the abilities in their class!!!
  9. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    There's just some confusion about the specific wording. They're making it so that every class has a support role they can spec into if they want, there are no "pures" or "hybrids" because everyone can, if they wanted to, become a tank or healer. That's been an issue which has come up in WoW several times over the course of its lifespan. When he talks about being people being locked into certain roles, he's referring to a situation like vanilla WoW where main tanks were always warriors, even though there were three classes with actual tanking specs. There are also situations where a player might level a pure DPS class to cap, join a raiding guild, then find that the guild has too many DPS already. That player would have no choice but to sit on the sidelines, find a new guild, or reroll a new character from scratch. In WildStar, that player would be guaranteed to have another option.

    WildStar has always been slated to be a trinity game. It's always been described and marketed as a trinity game.
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  10. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    I might be wrong but from what I understand the hybrid roles in Wildstar are very different then the hybrid roles in GW2. In GW2 you're a healer / DPS / Tank at the same time in the same build while in Wildstar you're generally one at a time.

    From what I understand what will make you a healer / tank and a dps is what skills you equip kinda more like gw1 then gw2. So to switch from DPS to heal is not just the way you play but you need to equip a different set of skills which generally means at any one time you're commited to a single role.

    I guess its possible to equip skills coming from both roles but since you're limited to a small number of skills this might not be ideal. Again this is kinda like it was in Gw1 if you played that game. You only had 8 slots and it was possible if you wanted to have dps/tanking and healer skills on one character but that would be a very very bad build because you'd end up with no energy management and a lot of energy consumption and you'd end up drained fast. I would imagine this might be something like that.
  11. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    Incentives are a mixed bag. Like most things, it depends on their implementation. Support roles are generally thankless outside of a static group (guild, friends, etc.), so offering tanks and healers some added reason to join random groups isn't the worst thing in the world. I'm another person who believes the population disparity in roles will always exist, and I honestly think it's better that way, but I've tanked/healed in randoms and I've DPSed in randoms. Very different atmospheres.

    I've never felt like I was fighting against my own group as DPS. As a tank or healer, though, that feeling is pretty commonplace. Whether it's players who insist on standing in fire, players who won't stop chain-pulling (and will get verbally aggressive if you ask them to stop)despite the fact that they're not the tank... I've never left a random group due to verbal abuse as a DPS. I've had to do it more than once as a tank/healer.

    So if the game tosses a little extra currency at players in those roles for doing endgame randoms, I'm not going to balk at that. I'd rather it not be gear, because that will just get those players done with everything need from there sooner, effectively removing them from the queue, and won't offer any incentive to people who already have everything they need from the dungeons. But a little spare change to make it so that a tank or healer could choose to do random dungeons in place of, say, dailies to keep up with their repair bills/consumables costs? I could get behind that.
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  12. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am confused here as well.

    I was thinking that a hybrid would be someone who can fill more than role, but can only do one at a time. Sort of like The burning crusade in WoW.

    Doing 2 roles at once is fine on occasion, but it has to be very limited for the holy trinity to work imo.
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  13. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    That is the correct understanding.
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  14. DMC9920

    DMC9920 New Cupcake

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    I think his answer made a lot of sense. 4 out of 11 classes in WoW are dps only. Mage, Warlock, Rogue, and Hunter can only ever dps. I know when I played healers in WoW it was incredibly boring so i'm happy healers will have some action and skill involved too.
  15. Rizzalliss

    Rizzalliss Cupcake

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    I felt like the question was really left unanswered. Playing a class that CAN tank or heal doesn't mean you are going to. If someone wants to play DPS(and doesn't have a raid group telling them they need to tank/heal) then they are going to play DPS.

    I, personally, am a Tank through and through.
    That being said, I do enjoy DPS and healing and have some experience in both. For me the reason for enjoying DPS is because I enjoy pushing myself to do better. You have a quantitative system by which to measure your performance.
    For healing, it is much the same reason that I enjoy tanking. It is the fact that if you do well, people live. If you do bad, people are going to know it. Even if no one says to you 'Dude, you are so good at tanking/healing!' you can rest assured that you are. (If you are, that is.)

    But realistically, I think what primarily draws people to tanking and healing is that they understand the inherent value of someone that can do it well, and, as such, know that they are valued by those who also understand it. (And aren't those the only people who really matter? ;) )

    I think it will be interesting to see how the telegraphed heals work out. It could serve as another layer of bragging rights for those who heal because they love being good at it.

    I guess what this wall of text is leading up to is the fact that, for me, the idea of telegraphed heals makes ME more interested in healing. It's just my personal opinion based on my play preference, but I think that it can help increase the incentive of some people to play healer because it becomes more challenging and, as a result, more rewarding.
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  16. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    So you are thinking the guys answer was that it provides more incentive to the player if he can play both roles on the same toon. I can see that as an answer, but I think the guy in the audience was wanting something like the loot bag, which I don't believe in.

    edit - there is more incentive to tank and heal when you know that the other players are actually putting effort into the encounter and executing the fight correctly....and they have that incentive because the fight is challenging and if they dont do it, then failure is a real possibility.
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  17. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the reason there is a lack of these players is because of the responsibility that falls on them, not because they're not fun. If a tank of healer screws up, you often know about it because it's affecting the rest of the raid. If a DPS screws his DPS and it dips, the only repurcions are on that individual and his place on the meters.

    Maybe it was a numbers thing in WoW, which inherently increases the responsibility of each member of that specific role. But if they want to evenly address that balance, it needs to be from the outright, because getting people to change their perceptions after an initial balance struck is going to be much harder than at the very beginning.
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  18. Sayantan

    Sayantan Cupcake

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    The challenge in raiding should be in the fights itself and not spamming "trade chat" for tanks and healers.

    @OP if you are using LFR/LFG to gauge WoW's raiding difficulty, then you clearly haven't done much organized heroic raids off late.

    8 million subs and only 350 odd Heroic Lei Shen kill. That's how tough high end wow raiding is.
  19. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    Idk, DPS has its responsibility as well. Its not all about losing face on the meter. Lots of challenging fights have some sort of DPS check involved as well.

    Also, a lot of people really undervalue how important DPS really is. An increase in your personal DPS is an exponential increase in the Raids DPS, as it increases the uptime of powerful raidwide dmg buffs. This in turn means less dmg taken, less healing required, and less chances for the raid to wipe.
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  20. Sayantan

    Sayantan Cupcake

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    This!!

    Finally someone who doesn't underestimate DPS.

    @Op a good DPS team can carry a weaker healing team. Figure out how.
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