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So Doing Whatever I Want is Great and all, But...

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Spracket, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like that the devs don't want players to be pigeon-holed into playing their characters in a way that they don't like. It was always disappointing to play a game where certain builds were basically useless in certain situations (having to be a frost mage in WoW for arenas, for instance). That being said, there is such a thing as "too much freedom."

    Often in gameplay videos with the devs giving commentary, they feel the need to assure the audience that you can do whatever you want with your class. This sounds all well and good, until they started talking about the two recent classes, the engineer and the medic.



    This was actually a pretty good interview given by IGN. She was asking questions that everyone seemed to want to know. The only problem was that she asks the same question multiple times, and , while I can't say if this was deliberate or not, her interviewee seemed to refuse to answer her directly.

    At around 2:30 and 12:20, she asks about the advantages of hybrid medics over pure healer/dps medics, and vice versa. However, both times, he answers "Oh you can do whatever you want," which to me--and probably others--isn't an answer at all. I feel like one of these builds is not going to happen because they directly contradict each other. If hybrids can keep a group alive, then pure healers are useless. At the same time, if a hybrid doesn't have enough healing output, then they're just gimped dps taking up two group slots. Know that this isn't necessarily what I believe, but since the question given to the dev was tiptoed around twice with the phrase, "You can do what you want," I have to remain skeptical.

    While it is definitely a step in the right direction to keep to the "trinity," I feel like the leash still needs to be tightened a bit more in terms of freedom. I'm only speculating from what information they've released so far, but every time a Dev says, "You can do what you want," I cringe a little. Having too much freedom is what led me to quit certain games.

    I think it would be better if the devs started pointing out the advantages and disadvantages to certain abilities and classes in their videos. This whole "You can do what you want," philosophy is great and all, but at the end of the day, I want to know why I picked my build aside from me thinking that it's neat.

    This was worrisome for me particularly when watching the Engineer livestream, when they were showcasing the abilities. They all looked nice and had interesting telegraphs, but I wanted to know why they were using them, aside from damage. It seemed the engineer had a blind, followed by a bunch of different damage-dealing cooldowns.

    TL:DR
    I'd really like to know more about not only what makes each class unique, but also their abilities. It's not that I'm not already sold on this game, but I am still wary about what separates one class from another in terms of their necessity. I get the whole, "bring the player, not the class," way of thinking, but I still need a job to be given. People keep asking why they should play one class over another and the question seems to never get answered.

    The whole situation reminds me of this:

    Destian likes this.
  2. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    You are asking if Hybrids are more viable than a Specific role. It's pretty impossible to know that answer unless they release(d) how gear will scale. Even then you would have to get a AMP setup and Tier setup directly for that.
    Also, the game isn't going to be like TESO or anything, there are going to be restrictions. It's about playing the class the way you want to play the class.
    It's not quite as extreme as you may think. Say for instance I was playing a Shadow Priest, and man I really hated the lack of CC I had, so I would be able to drop something (probably something like a heal) and add in another CC. Or if I wanted to be a lil stronger off healer I would gear with that in mind and change my lineup so I would have 2 heals. Maybe I used my amps to focus more on PvP defense as well or focus on as many snares / roots as possible (this is bring Spriest into WS just bare with me). I would still have basically the same abilities maybe 1 difference in my LAS my Amps would look completely different from say a Spriest that wants to put out a ton of dmg in PvP.

    The LAS is still going to restrict how powerful a build could be, think about Diablo (dunno if you played that) but it's like one of those things where that whole experience you think "Dang if only I had one more slot for this ability" . We aren't going to have 50 keybinds or anything and they also said they will pay attention to the numbers and if needed do changes every week until they get it so nothing is OP but some classes will still have advantages over others.

    Either way, I wouldn't stress too much over the "play how you want", you could load up with 7 CC's if you wanted to just annoy people in PVP but that isn't going to do enough damage to anyone. So maybe in arenas or Warplots there are people that do that so that their teammates can take less CC abilities and more dps abilities.

    It's a give and take type of thing but either way, a hybrid minded player will be able to do a little of each but they shouldn't be better than someone who is geared/tiered/amped for a speific role.

    Least that's my understanding
  3. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    Engineer Tier-Amps Revealed-
    Warrior Tier-Amps Revealed-
    Stalker Tier-Amps Revealed-
    Esper Tier- Amps Revealed -
    Spellslinger Tier- Amps Revealed-
    Medic Tier- Amps Reveale-
    All Paths abilities Revealed

    If you really want to know then watch these, I did and I feel I have a pretty good idea of the idea behind each class. BTW Esper has a TON of CC, Like a Warlock but with a Shadow Priest Resource / Nuke (Mind blast).
  4. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not so concerned with hybrid medics specifically, that was more of an example. My point was more that the producer was sidestepping the interviewers question about what role each build had. "Yes, Mr. Frost, we understand that there won't be a gun held at our temples telling us how to build our characters." That wasn't her question. She wanted to know what jobs each role would be fulfilling. For what purpose would I be building this character over that character?

    I'm sure there are proper restrictions in the game, I would just like to know what they are. I'm not so much concerned about the game itself than I am about what information the devs are releasing about the classes in their streams. I suppose it's their information to give in the end. It's just their choice of advertisement that's making me uneasy.

    I'm just hoping that each class has something different to bring to a group. I want to know what advantages I have as a spellslinger over another class. It makes you care about that class even more. That exclusivity is what made me love my mage in BC, and the lack of it is why I stopped playing GW 2.

    I'll definitely be watching these videos for the next hour or so. They probably have the answers I was looking for in the livestreams. I guess I should have subscribed to zybakTV a while ago. I watched a bunch of his earlier pre-beta videos and forgot about the channel. But I suppose that's my point; why am I going to ZybakTV for information that should have been given in the live stream? Especially that last one, which was 10 minutes shorter than the others. That's basically 10 minutes of information left out.
  5. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    They went over the differences between some of the classes in the rollout vids.
  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I see hybrid more being strong in the solo elder game.

    Support = healer or tank roll (with ofcourse some points in the other AMP's for nice effects)
    And the AMP's for offensive speak for themselves. Ofcourse you can choose which AMP's are better depending on your LAS settup.

    The amps can be seen more as talents for certain stats (improvements to those stats).
    While the tiering can be seen more as the ''special'' effects of the talents aka. giving it extra abilities (adding a slow or knock down to an ability etc.)

    As for the classes. WildStar has reserved themselves from using long term buffs like in WoW. Therefore it isn't really needed to ''ask for a spellslinger dps'' because you are lacking a spellslinger in your party and you want to have his buff. No that's not true.

    No it's less of a ''bring a class'' and more of a ''bring a person''.

    Why the person?

    You are looking for a person who knows his class so he can dodge the telegraphs making the job for the healer easier and still being able to deal TONS OF DAMAGE! (quoting Freak here).

    See what i'm trying to say?
  7. Crunkious

    Crunkious New Cupcake

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    I would assume that a hybrid build character would be better at tackling solo content than a specialist. When you are in a raid and have other characters to specialize and fill the roles you don't it is okay to be strict dps/heals/tank, because if you can't do any damage but can heal everyone you can move through content as a team. If you try to solo content as a specialist you will be heavy on one aspect and low on another. W* is just allowing all classes to be hybrids the same way that pallys/shamans/druids are the hybrids of WoW and are better at the solo content.
  8. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    everyone knows the best solo toons are always tanks. Engineer will more than likely be the best soloer followed by the Stalker. They have the tools to make soloing easier since the Engineer is a Tank spec and has Pets they will have a much much easier time than say, a Spellslinger. Stalker has a Tank spec as well and also has stealth so that'll let him/her by pass a lot of mobs.

    Caster hybrids aren't going to be that great, they'll prolly be able to solo okish, prolly the medic will be the best of the casters but that's about it.

    Hybrids in raids I don't see being taken at all, because it's just like bringing a gimped dps or a gimped healer, it'd be best to just go dps or heals for raiding.
  9. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think when they say you can be a hybrid healer/off tank for each of the respective classes you're concerned about, it's important to keep in mind that while both of these may be suboptimal builds in smaller group settings, they really shine in large group content. If, as a medic, I were to balance my assault and support power and change out my LAS to shift between these two different healing needs I could see how someone could be a little more hybrid in one instance, and a little more healing/assault in the other. You might not be the most powerful, but you could shine in a given role depending on what's required. Also, it's nice in raids to have someone who can heal/DPS 70/30 in one phase, then switch it around 30/70 in another phase. Having someone like that around can mean all the difference in the world in progression sometimes. That's the benefit.

    Now, as someone already mentioned I think, this is all dependent on a classes ability to gear appropriately and achieve a good ratio of assault to support power. What those breakpoints are, I have no idea. Just looking at the medic's hybrid AMPs though, there are those that alter the balance of assault/support power so that you can keep the same gear on, but still have enough support power to help off heal if the fight requires it.
  10. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well I brought that up in my original post, if only briefly. To be honest, I had completely forgotten about buffs. I was more referring to ability mechanics that were only available to certain classes, such as banish or polymorph. And not only single abilities, but the general mechanics of classes, such as the innate ability to kite better than others, or the ability to off-tank just in case of a surprise add. And there were raid encounters that required this. Maybe Wildstar will have this; who's to say just yet? I'm sure one class will be much better at kiting than another. But why do I care what my class can do when every other class can do the same thing?

    I'm sure people have been frustrated when left out of a raid group because they were a warrior and the group needed a warlock, but I think there needs to be a healthy medium between "bringing the player" and "bringing the class." In my experience, I didn't get a spot in a raid group simply because I was a mage, I was brought in because I was that mage.

    Like you say, the person needs to know their class, know the fights, stay alive, and still manage to do his job. I liked doing my best in the jobs I was given, be it DPSing, kiting, or even standing still spamming polymorph. I had a job, I was able to do that job because my class abilities allowed me to, and if I stopped doing that job, the raid would fail. And I wasn't a healer or a tank.

    Now if every class was able to perform the job that my class could, well it would frankly be kind of lame.
    I'm only hoping for some mechanics that make the classes stand out from one other aside from having different-shaped telegraphs, which, in the video, is indirectly what Mr. Frost claimed to be the difference between healing as a medic and healing as an esper or spellslinger.

    Again, I don't know enough about the game, I'm just hoping, as someone who intends to dps, that there are more differences between an engineer and a spellslinger than what color their bullets are.
  11. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    See, if the Dev in the video had answered the interviewer the way you did just now, she wouldn't have had to ask him twice. :roflamo: Like I said, I'm not concerned with the builds themselves, only with the way they're being presented. I love you, Carbine, but "do whatever you want" isn't really an answer. Of course I'll do what I want.
  12. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    Did you watch the Dev Class Drops? (Or whatever it's called)
    They go as in depth as they can and they show the difference in telegraphs and style between each class
  13. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    You are still clinging too much to the ''WoW'' idea.

    The CC that classes in WS have are not as long term CC's then in WoW. So don't expect a CC with the duration of a sheep as mages had in WoW. HOWEVER! Does this mean the CC job is gone in raids/dungeons?
    No!!!
    In WildStar it is key to time those CC's with your group in order to reduce his stacks of interupt armor to the point were he can be interupted from his cast, prefenting a raid big wipe.

    Now you may ask yourself what makes a class a class in raiding? No long term buffs, no long term CC....
    WildStar does those things with short term abilities/
    Short term buffs to the group/raid
    Short term CC (to reduce the interupt armor stacks)

    But the greatest asset that a ''class'' can have is the way HOW they do damage!

    Some classes are way better in single target damage while others in AoE dmg. Some peeps may have more debuffs, while others have more short term buffs.
    In WS fights we can only assume that you need all kind of damage dealers, single target, AoE etc. etc.

    TL;DR
    Don't hang on to the WoW examples for ''jobs'' too much, WildStar has a different take on those jobs.
    Although i'm still sure that it's less of ''we need that class'' as in WoW. WildStar focuses on other things, they do this by making all those long term spells (buff/cc), to short term spells.
  14. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, my answer is all conjecture, so take it for what you will :) I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. It's just my own interpretation of the current information.
  15. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey, go for it. This thread started as conjecture to begin with.
  16. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am pretty sure their do what you want thing is they are attempting to avoid every class having the same exact builds.

    I in WoW raided as mage, shad. Priest and Enh Shaman and those characters all had the same exact builds as anybody else raiding in those specs.

    I am guessing in WS the objective is you will have say more than one spellslinger in a group or raid, Both will pull the right dps or hps numbers but their builds could be completely different.
  17. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    The ideal situation (not necessarily reality), is that a player will be able to spec more and more into hybrid terrain depending upon two key factors:

    1. How hard what they're trying to do is vs. how good their gear is: Is this a progression raid fight? If so, better spec for all the heals.

    2. Their personal skill as a player and the skill of their party/raid.

    I will love this game until the end of time if they can balance it so that a skilled player is able to spec out of the healing skills/abilities they don't need to get the job done in favor of better DPS, thus allowing the player to select their "difficulty setting".

    You very well may find a situation in which progression happens when certain players are able to spec hybrid in raids because there's less healing that needs to be done overall since players CAN avoid attacks.
  18. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Dev streams are intros to the classes… not detailed how to’s.
    If you want info on how your class works for you, you’re going to have to get your hands dirty, because the Devs cannot tell you this.
    Because of the Hybrid DPS-Support of every class, and the Tactical Action Combat (Movement, Aiming, Breakout, LAS, AMPs, Tiers), WildStar cannot tell you what works for you. A build that works for one person, might not work for another; this is where "You can do what you want," kicks in, and to be optimum it’s not going to be really an option, you are going to have to experiment to find the best build for you.

    At the end of the day, if you’re doing it right you picked your build because it works best for what you want to do.
  19. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm going with...

    There will min/max builds for different raid encounters due to the LAS.

    Most "builds" will be viable for solo or world group content.

    Just my impression from what I have seen or read.
  20. Mountebank

    Mountebank New Cupcake

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    Hybrids are almost always going to be stronger in solo content and less-challenging 'dungeon'/small-party encounters.

    For Raiding, however, Purists are going to be preferred. It's simply how the end-game community design will go, as they will determine what Devs will have to tune and balance for: somewhere far above the LCD yet still below a specific ideal build (so as to avoid cookie cutter syndrome).

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