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So Doing Whatever I Want is Great and all, But...

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Spracket, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Silinsar

    Silinsar New Cupcake

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    Wether or not hybrids are useful/required in PvE depends on the encounter design imo.

    To put it simply: You don't need any when the dedicated healers can keep the group up in every situation and the DD's deal enough damage in DPS-checks. However, if one fights includes phases where you need less overall damage but more healing than your healers can dish out and 20seconds later you need less healing but more damage than your DD's deal, then you need a certain amount of flexible characters aka hybrids.
    Also, even when the situation isn't as described as above, hybrids can act as some kind of "safety net" when something goes wrong, at the cost of overall slower speed when everything goes according to the plan (less DPS but emergency defensive capabilities).
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  2. Mountebank

    Mountebank New Cupcake

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    I have a feeling that the majority of small group encounters are going to require a lot of mobility and flexibility. Otherwise, why give everyone hybrid potential and require dodging to be a necessary strategy?
  3. Flinder

    Flinder Cupcake

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    You should allow for the possibility that Stephan Frost isn't a veteran player with dozens or hundreds of hours logged doing instanced content on a Medic. And so he doesn't actually know the answer to questions like those.
  4. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    Does this game have anything that can be described as pure? Wow faced a good share of issues making hybrids good in raids while fighting the crybaby pures who thought they should always be #1 on recount.
  5. Bastille

    Bastille Cupcake

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    Not from what I've seen. Which is awesome. Like you, I'm sick of people feeling entitled because my class can be specced to heal and theirs can't. Everyone is only playing one spec at a time anyway so getting rid of pures is solid.

    Plus, I always hated leveling a pure because the idea of not being pigeonholed into one spec and not being able to heal or tank if I feel like it kind of sucks.
  6. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's the eternal struggle, it seems.

    Why would anyone play a rogue when a paladin can do just as much damage and has much better support options, etc.?

    Their ultimate solution was to just have all classes homogenized, really. :\
  7. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    An unfortunate side effect of people playing by the numbers as well. The math might have said mage was the best ranged DPS... But that does not mean someone enjoys mage because they love the gameplay of shadow priest.

    Leaves a dev with two options, leave things as is and let people deal or make the SP able to do enough DPS to be worth bringing on a raid. This of course angers the mage crowd but is loved by those who enjoy shadow...

    (yea I know WoW examples but its the only game I know when referencing homogenzation, We did not see it much in EQ)

    Its not a terrible solution because otherwise you either get unused classes or forums filled with "I got stuck with a hybrid and my instance took 25 minutes instead of 24."
  8. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    See, this is exactly my concern. I hope to see some differentiation among the classes. I understand the devs not being able to release absolutely every bit of information, but I don't think it's asking too much to know the difference between classes aside from their armor and telegraphs.

    Shadowpriests had lower dps because they had another purpose, that being keeping the raids mana going. I'm just hoping something similar is happening in Wildstar. That is, I hope that there is enough distinction between classes and builds that a spellslinger won't be able to do anything every other ranged class could. If there is some utility that can only be provided by certain classes and builds, then players may not be so glued to their recount window.

    That's ultimately why the engineer live stream was a bit underwhelming for me. I am interested in the telegraphs, but not only the telegraphs. If they had dedicated three to five minutes onto the already short video to go into some detail about the tier bonuses, I'd have been much more excited. Without it, we're just looking at different shaped cones.

    I guess my point is that I'm hoping for more roles to fill than just tanks, healers, and DPS. The homogenization of the DPS in WoW is ultimately what killed it for me. I stopped wanting to DPS because my class stopped feeling necessary. I tried to heal, but it couldn't keep my interest in that game.

    From the videos Zybak provided, it looks hopeful. The classes seem to have certain abilities exclusive to their classes. For instance, Espers have the unique abilities to partially ignore a target's shields and generate absorption. These may not be entirely exclusive to the class, since I haven't finished watching the videos yet, but I do hope so. And now that I recall, the devs did state that engineers have the unique ability to repair their groups shields, so that's encouraging.
  9. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Does it like tell you this at character creation, because it sounds like it would suck to be a Shadowpriest if you’re not into raiding, or don't much like being a manna battery.

    I guess you better get un-encouraged then, because I don’t know where you heard that these classes have these unique abilities, but it’s not true.
    Medics have the ability to heal group shields, Spellslingers are able to apply absorption, and Stalkers can partially ignore target’s shields.
    It gets worse though; through Tiers and AMPs other classes also get these abilities.
    Now for the final letdown; none of these classes have any of these abilities if they do not put the Ability that has these abilities on their LAS bar (Say that 3 times fast :D ).

    What is unique to the classes are their weapons, and their inherent ability, and with 30 Abilities to choose from you can do builds that allows you to use only the primary or secondary weapons. I have no clue how viable this build would be, but it is possible.

    What you are refusing to hear is that "You can do what you want," is the answer.
    The W* Devs are not going to tell you the defining role of your class within W*, because they can’t.
    That is totally up to you to decide.
  10. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    "These may not be entirely exclusive to the class, since I haven't finished watching the videos yet, but I do hope so."
    I started watching those videos again and yep, it seems that you're right.

    That seems like the only redeeming part of the whole system. It's at least an attempt to force us to make a decision about what abilities we should have equipped, and not having to see handfuls of the same character roaming about, all sporting identical action bars.


    Here's where I'm hoping that you're misinterpreting their meaning because that system of finding your own method is what turned Guild Wars 2 into a huge letdown (not to mention other flaws). Hopefully, it turns out that the devs are being deliberately ambiguous to avoid giving away too much information, urging the players to figure it out on their own. If so, then great.

    Thankfully, they're at least going back to the trinity so there's some structure. Now we can only hope that there's some complexity among the DPS portion of the group as well. Carbine probably has well enough experience to know that having different-colored projectiles isn't going to keep players' interest for too long. We need to be given more choice than the range of our weapons.
  11. coreymj78

    coreymj78 Cupcake-About-Town

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    ^ ^ ^ ^
  12. coreymj78

    coreymj78 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm still sitting here scratching my head because on one hand you say you don't want the game to have too much "you can do what you want" in it so roles are clearly definted, but then in the next breath you say "we need to be given more choice" I mean, what do you want? Choice or no choice?

    Read the post where I quoted another dude just before this post. What he says sums it up. Yes Wildstar will have hyrbid classes and you will be able to customize things, but that means you will be gimped in another area and will have to sacrifice other aspects of your spec. This tells me two things: If you will have to sacrifice DPS for more heals (to be a hybrid heal/dps spec) then while that might be awesome for soloing, it will not be so great for raids and group PVE content.

    That leads me to my second point. This being the case, who do you think would opt to be a hybrid class in raids or engame content? No one in their right mind unless they only want to be support. Becuase at endgame, the roles need to be clearly defined to maximise success. DPS needs to have the best DPS they can, hence pure DPS specs. Healing needs to be able to heal the best they can, hence pure heal specs.

    TLDR: This basically means that while WS will give the OPTION to be a hybrid spec, it does not mean that hybrid specs will always be viable at endgame and will most likely not be able to maximise success. I see them more for questing, leveling and solo content or support. This is by no means saying that hybrid won't work at endgame, but they will probably end up having more fringe / support roles, especially in raids.

    P.S. Trust me, I'm agreeing with you becuase I don't really like the approach TESO is taking with "everyone can do whatever they want" and personally, I don't like the way GW2 did it either. Roles need to be defined. If not, everything is grey and mushy and doesn't make sense at all.
  13. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I should have clarified. When I say we need more choice, I don't mean we need more freedom. That isn't actually choice in the end because players are going to follow the path of least resistance. By this I mean that if you can role whatever you want to do whatever you want, your choice means nothing, and you all may as well pick the same class if it currently deals the most damage.

    I mean that we need to be given more clearly structured options to choose from. That is, given some options as what to be responsible for throughout the content. For tanks and healers, this is easy; you tank or you heal. If the roles in the game are completely community generated (Guild Wars 2), and we're supposed to guess as to what's our defining role in the game ("Well I've got this water field... I guess I'm a support...?") that's not choice. It turned into, "Well, we may as well just be DPS since there's is no need for tanks or healers."

    And that's why I say that I'm glad to have at least some structure with the trinity. However, this can't be all there is to it. That's exactly how WoW is structured now; some guy to take all the damage, a healer to heal him, and the rest to spam their damage abilities. And I think I've said before that this is where I want to see some more structure; among the DPS. If a player doesn't want to tank or heal, then what role is he choosing? The class with the prettiest colors? That's better than how Guild Wars 2 was structured, but barely. The main reason I stopped playing WoW was because my class stopped having a specific role to play; the server may as well have all been warlocks because they were the top DPS at the time, and DPS was all you needed to bring to a raid.

    Again, I'm mostly speaking out of unawareness; there is still the content to look to for this. I only hope that when the time comes, and the game is released, that each class has its own responsibility in a group, rather than simply tossing out damage. I want to wipe when Class A isn't doing its job. I want to be disappointed when we can't find Class B to help the raid with what it brings to the table. And these are DPS I'm thinking of, not tanks. Content is not supposed to be the only challenge in an MMO, you're also supposed to worry about group management.

    And you're completely right. I don't see how there will be a place for both the hybrids and dps of the same class in a raid. Of course, I don't know how it will play out. I keep hearing the devs throw around the word, "support," but what do they mean by that word? Extra healing? We already have healers! Again, the players will follow the path of least resistance. You aren't going to see someone deliberately gimping his raid group because he's "doing what he wants." He will not keep his raid spot. And that's what I mean by choice. I want a platter to choose from, not different colored M&Ms; they all taste the same no matter what I pick. From what we've seen from the class abilities, I can only guess that the only utility that DPS will bring to a raid is light CC and kiting capabilities.
  14. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Do they?

    WildStar is not WoW.
    It is a Tactical Action game, and unlike WoW player skill is going to be just as important (maybe more important?) as the various stats; if you can’t hit your target, or are slow to use Breakout, or always dying from the Red, the best stats in the world are going to be useless.
    If all things where equal Support/Assault is going to be better than Hybrid, that is a fact, but the player make things "not all equal", and there is no way to measure the player without seeing the player in action.
    A good Hybrid player is going to be better in game than a mediocre Support/Assault player, despite what the numbers say. Hells they might be better than a good Support/Assault player, because good is also not quantifiable, and the good Hybrid player might be just enough better to outperform the good Support/Assault player.
    Now you could just say that a Good Hybrid would be even better if they went Support/Assault, but this is not an absolute.
    I.e. A good US Football Defensive Linemen, is not automatically going to be good at the Offensive Lineman position, just because they both play on the line. Hells, the good Defensive Lineman might be very good at putting pressure on the quarterback, and just good at stopping the runner, so it would be idiotic to put them on the Offensive line, where they will never be able to do what they are very good at.

    When player skill is an important factor, you have to actually look at player skill.


    What I have stated is opinion based upon observation of W*, and unless you have W* Eldergame experience to back your opinion stated as a fact, I think my opinion is more relevant to W* gameplay then your opinion, because I think your opinion is based on a different game.
  15. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd very interested in seeing Carbine ever referring to the game as this. Also, this "trying your best to not make anything similar to WoW" is what killed GW2. "Let's ignore everything good about the game simply because we don't want to be too WoW-like." They aren't trying to make a... tactical action game...(gag), they're doing exactly what WoW did in its genesis; they're moving from one game (Everquest) to keep what was working and improve on its faults. WoW stopped working, and they're trying to get back on track with what an mmorpg is supposed to be.


    I like how you're using an analogy of a game, with clearly defined roles, to claim why not having defined roles makes the game somehow... better? Each member of the team has his own job, and that does nothing but add depth to the game. And honestly, our observation of what has been seen of W* doesn't show that player skill will be a huge factor. Like you said, we have no Eldergame experience; it could be nothing but tank-and-spanks for all you know. It could be, as you want to avoid, just like WoW, with no actual set roles for the classes, and simply spamming buttons and staying out of red junk. Yes, that will take some semblance of skill, but it won't be an MMORPG, which is what they're trying to make.
  16. coreymj78

    coreymj78 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't say it was. But if you look closely, they are following a lot of the same systems wow has, and I don't just mean the payment model. I feel strongly that WS is catering to vanilla wow players and oldschool MMO players who enjoy the traditional MMO experience, holy trinity, raids, and everything wow was and sort of *cough* still is. Myself being one of these people (and probably even a little old to be playing MMO's still) this is exactly the reason why I was drawn to WS in the first place. Because here, I already have that oldschool vanilla feeling just watching the vids. A game doesn't have to be classic fantasy and have exactly the same mechanics as wow to have very similar aspects as wow. And I know for a fact that Carbine is aiming at catering to ex-wow burnouts and oldschool vanilla wow players.

    Also, I agree, I never saw this as a tactical action game, what does that even mean? lol WS has simply brought some cool mechanics and animation to the scene. The most different aspects being the telegraphs, but those things don't take the game to the opposite end of the spectrum from wow, they just add some originality is all.
    Spracket likes this.
  17. Gôre

    Gôre Cupcake

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    I see where LAS allows a wide variety of options per class. Taking the spellslinger for example, you have two immediately obvious options in Assault: Physical Damage and Magical Damage. You could also opt for a hybrid there. DoT's or Burst. CC. There's a lot of additional power in the Hybrid AMP tree. That's not even considering healing options. Sure, you'll have FOTM builds, but I think that you'll see players shining in more difficult builds too.
  18. Kytty

    Kytty Cupcake-About-Town

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    Im going to have to say this thread hurt my head. In my defence I am reading it first thing in the morning at work.

    From what I have seen every class has 2 defined roles that you can spec. If you choose to hybridise it tht is up to you. The LAS then allows you to further define your current role at that precise moment in time. You can change your LAS as needed while out of combat.

    Hybrids will be good for solo. But also may be needed in larger raids where one fight may require more heals so .. OK ... LAS bar gets loadeed up with green glowy goodness ... OK This guy needs you to just burn him to the ground ASAP, minimum heals required ... Sweet ... Load LAS with red lazer pew pew awesome.

    This is why the devs keep saying play the way you want. If you want to mainly perma raid and group up sweet there are specs for that. Like to solo around and just wave to the occasional person you pass awesome. Hybrid it up (If you choose) ... Like to pwn noobs in PvP ... totally got a spec for that.

    TL;DR (Morning post hurts brain) - Dont overthink it ... you will suck the fun out of it for yourself. Pick your class based on what you prefer to play not just because "ZOMG He does ze more damages pew pew!" If you get what I mean
  19. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Overall, I think I'm going to have to agree that the engineer will be the best for solo. But sometimes the word 'best' is just a replacement for 'easiest'. I still intend to solo with my esper. It likely won't be nearly as easy, but I will learn that a couple of mistakes are bad. Therefore, it will force me to become better, more alert, and more reactive in the long run.

    Towards the elder game, I can easily see my Esper being a hybrid and that's probably what I will play for. Eventually, even longer down the road, I may respec the character into a dedicated healer as I make a new character.
  20. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not really what I meant. Picking what you prefer to play should be a given. What I was saying is that I hope the content forces the DPS players into specific roles precisely to avoid only worrying about your damage. I say "content" because excluding a select few abilities and different sized telegraphs, the class abilities are homogenized in such a way that it doesn't really matter what class you are. Now, we have to rely on the content to separate the classes (e.g. battles that can only be won by proper kiting, etc.). When the DPS has no other job than to DPS, the content will only be about "ze more damages pew pew." The tanks and the healers have their jobs, and if they aren't doing their jobs properly, the group fails.

    Granted, I'm saying this knowing nothing about the game. This thread is meant to be pure speculation. I'm only pointing out my concern about whether the game turns into a giant recount competition for the DPS simply because that's their only job in the dungeon/raid.

    What we do know about this game is that there will be addons that the community will be using, and among them will most likely be a DPS meter. And if the way you want to play is not doing nearly the damage output of other specs or classes, then you'll end up out of luck. Now, if one's particular class/spec that brought some utility to the table that was unique, groups would be less-likely to shut that class/spec out - regardless of its DPS output - because DPS isn't that player's only job.

    Similarly, tanks, while they are intended to attack the enemy - along with the DPS - they additionally have the job to keep threat on themselves. This way, their lack of DPS is (for the most part) not only accepted, but expected. Adding another role to the fight that the DPS must fill (kiting, CC, off-tanking, etc.) gives them something else to worry about, so a lack of DPS output will be expected as well.

    TL;DR
    I'm hoping there are roles to fill in the content aside from Tank/Healer/DPS, specifically for the sake of the DPS. Without a defining job for certain classes, the PvE content will devolve into staring at your DPS meter (and maybe you won't be monitoring your damage output, but others will be). I'm not going to namedrop any specific games, but when a game's content becomes unstructured to a point that you need to do nothing more than DPS, the content quickly becomes stale.

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