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So, with this C.R.E.D.D system?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Gunghoe, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except its not a real possibility. For that to happen you would need several Bill Gates level players keeping a stranglehold on the cred market, which is incredibly unlikely on any real basis. They end up spending more time buying Credd than selling and will soon go broke. The market is self balancing. The only way for the price to seriously get jacked up is for there to be more players willing to "work hard" for their Credd than the number of players who are willing to pay 2 hours wage to catch up.

    Yes, there will be the monthly ups and downs of the market. End of the month prices will be higher due to more demand and people being lazy. End of the week prices will drop thanks to people buying in after getting paid, etc.
  2. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    And that is exactly what will happen... A few "Bill Gates" of the game (the players that have time, and can farm a lot of gold) that can buy out all of the fairly priced CREDDs driving the price up. The regular players (which are most of the players), will not have a chance against that.

    You believe that the economy will be nice and fair, and everyone will be able to get into the CREDD market, and we'll have some nice "healthy" competition... Reality is a lot different than that...

    Prices will go up. There is just some people that can get tons of money in MMOs. It will be in their "best" interesting to keep the prices up, so they can even trade with those and make money. It's an open market after all, you said it yourself. So there will be people keen on cornering that market...
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  3. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yup. They might be completely unwilling to pay $15 per month just to keep playing the game they've already bought, but they're perfectly fine with paying an average of $5-10 per month to get nifty new stuff, and there are a lot more of them. There's no point getting into the details, just accept that every game that has gone from P2P to F2P has reported a significant increase in profitability.

    I've paid subscriptions in the past, probably at least 3/4 or more of the past decade I've had at least one active sub at a time, but I've never liked it. I don't like paying a fee for the "privilege" of playing a game I've already purchased. It feels wrong to me, even when I can totally afford it, and regardless of the thousands of arguments I've heard about how it's a "better deal" than this or that form of entertainment. The subscription always chafes at me, and I'll drop it as soon as I'm not having a great time, in cases where if it were free I might continue playing, and might grow to enjoy it again. And that's coming from someone who is at least tentatively willing to pay a sub, most gamers won't even entertain the idea, and you can't argue them into doing so.

    But if you get them into the game, having fun, and then tell them that there's this cool little bonus that they could spend money to buy, and they might buy it. It works. You can't argue with me that it doesn't, because it does, you may as well argue that the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun for all the good it will do you. Even if you manage to convince me, still it moves.

    Just like it wasn't a problem for TOR, or DCUO, or LotRO, or the dozen other MMOs that have come out over the last few years, all promising to have plenty to do at endgame and none delivering to the community's satisfaction that they could maintain a subscription-only model. Maybe Carbine will pull it off, but it'll be a damned miracle if they do where so many other, more established, bigger companies have failed. I have more reasonable expectations. I think they'll launch a good game with a solid amount of stuff to do at all levels, including endgame, but it'll still never be enough for the complainers, and they'll never have, much less maintain, a population large enough to survive on subscriptions alone.

    If Blizzard were offering a CREED-like service you wouldn't have that much gold. Don't expect to be as rich in Wildstar as you are in WoW.

    And then once that month is up, if you don't have enough CREED for a sub then you'd need to pay a monthly fee or quit. No thank you, I'll not pay $60 for a game that will be bricked after one month unless I pay them more money. I'll wait till it goes fully F2P.

    It works great in GW2, which is also published by NCSoft. Name me one thing in GW2's cash shop that you absolutely must buy.

    Slander involves lying, not just criticizing. I haven't heard anyone lying about the CREED system.

    Think of CREED as GW2 Precursors. They will probably be about the same thing.
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  4. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    At least spell it right man, C'mon.....
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  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except they cannot realistically keep up with the supply. Artificial inflation is not something you can maintain unless you put others out of business (aka Walmart).

    What reality are you basing this on exactly? What I describe is exactly how both Eve and Tera operate. Its also how business is actually done in the real world. It takes natural disaster level events to put any kind of real dent in a market over a period of time. Everything else is short term. You can only corner a market if you can control the supply, since supply is entirely in the hands of the market there is no realistic way to corner it in the way you are describing.
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  6. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    TOR never promised a lot to do at end game, they promised a bioware quality leveling experience. Did you miss the part where wildstar is getting pushed back 6 months or the countless times they have stated how important end game is. Their main focus IS endgame and unlike any other mmo from the last few years they arn't going to launch until they have content lined up. This is on top of the 150hr leveling time which is 2-3x longer then most mmos. Your average gamer playing 20 hours a week is goingto take 2 monks before they even see endgame. It wont be a miracle, it will be good design decisions

    Thats exactly how i feel when i spend even a dollar in a F2P game. I know friends who have spent 1000$ in LoL and yet i dont have a single skin even though i have plenty on money to spend on gaming. I wont to spend my 15$ a month and get EVERYTHING.
    There's only one example of a BP2 game doing remotely well and that's guild wars. Saying GW2 does well therefor wildstar should go B2P is no different that someone using wow does well and wildstar should go P2P.

    Completely agree. I think some of these people need to take a freshman economics course.
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  7. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh, TOR promised to have a lackluster endgame? Every MMO promises a superior endgame experience, it's just that few if any deliver right away.

    From the press release it didn't indicate that the delay was about chunking more content on the end of the game, it sounded like they were heavily refitting what they already had "done." While I have no reason to doubt that they want to have a constant pipeline of post-launch content, I have no reason to doubt that the other dozen or so MMOs to come out had an equal commitment to post-launch content. Will Carbine succeed where EVERY other game failed completely? Maybe, but realistically I think it'd be fair to expect about the same level of performance, no less, but no more either.

    And yet I haven't seen an MMO yet that doesn't claim a 200 hour leveling time, which is 50% more than that. Again, will Carbine succeed where all others fail and prevent anyone from hitting cap within the first week or two? Maybe. Maybe not.

    I have every hope that Carbine will make a great game here, but again, you seem to insist that they will create a miracle, a game that delivers on all the same promises that previous games promised, and then failed to deliver. Do you really believe that EVERY company that delivered an MMO within the past five years or more has been completely incompetent where Carbine is completely flawless?

    These are professional companies with seasoned staff, many of whom with equal or greater tack records of success as anyone on Carbine's staff, and yet all of them attempted to deliver on all the goals Carbine has put forth, and all of them for some reason or another failed. This failure did not result in a completely dead game, because they recovered from them, but if they'd just been more realistic in their expectations and more honest with their customers, as Arenanet was, they could have avoided all that mess and retained a much larger audience.

    For example, here are some articles with quotes from TOR devs:

    BioWare expected players to take three to five months to hit SWTOR’s level cap
    That article lists TOR as having "170-180 hours of content" per character.

    Here's an article about TOR from 2010:
    Star Wars: The Old Republic end game is 'brand new system' Bioware says it's 'never been done in an MMO before'

    "We want to make sure the endgame isn't completely different to what you have been doing," he said. "So there will be a natural progression... We want to make sure that when people play ToR they feel like they never run out of content... that it's an epic story."

    It's nice to hope that Carbine delivers 100% on every pre-launch promise and then some, but history would indicate that they are likely to miss on an awful lot of them, and that's ok, because the game can still be REALLY good in spite of that, but don't pin your hopes for the game on them getting it absolutely perfect, because it's insanely unlikely that will happen. If Carbine is absolutely perfect, more perfect than any game developer has yet been in the history of game development, then the subscription model might work out for them. Maybe. If they fall in any way short of absolute perfection, like a 90% Metacritic rating or something ridiculously low like that, then the sub model likely will not get them the money they need for continued development, and the box sales will not be enough to cover the development costs. I sincerely wish them the best if they stick with that plan, but I couldn't bank on it.

    This is why options are good, people are different. Just because there are a lot more people like me than people like you doesn't mean that they should only make the game F2P if they can offer both in a reasonable manner.

    There's something of a point to that, but not entirely. See, the difference is that WoW is a ten year old game that is on a steady decline, while GW2 is a one year old game. GW2 is an indication of how a game launched within the 2012-2014 window is likely to perform, while WoW is a poor indication of how a game launched in that window is likely to perform, given how the customer base has shifted since 2004. It's true that GW2 is the only B2P using that sort of model that has balanced it just right, but there are numerous games that have launched B2P, F2P, or P2P->F2P over the past few years, and the F2P models have all blown the P2P models out of the water.

    Any game that did poorly as a F2P/B2P would have been a complete joke if they'd attempted P2P. I mean, I waited until the retail price on Defiance dropped to $13 before I bought a copy, I wouldn't have touched it with a ten foot pole if there has been a subscription attached. I only played it for a few days and haven't touched it in a couple weeks, but I might still go back in if I feel like it, while if it has a subscription then it would have lapsed by now and there would be no chance of re-upping it.

    I'm not saying that if Carbine went B2P that it would be impossible for them to screw it up anyways, I'm just saying that B2P would give them a much better chance of getting it right than the chances of them getting a P2P model right.
  8. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    With the chance of sounding stupid; How do you come to this conclusion? ;-)
  9. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I have nothing against F2P model it self, I think it works rather well in many games and I play many free to play games my self, such as; Team Fortress 2, World of Tanks, Tribes: Ascend, DOTA2, League of Legends, Smite etc etc.

    I just do not think F2P model works for a big budget competitive and slightly "elitist" MMO which shoots to drive people with feeling of accomplisment and the feeling of becomming a better player. F2P vs P2P is a long discussion and this thread is about CREDD system so I won't go deeper in this.

    I do not like paying monthly subsription either, but what I like and what the game I like needs can also be mutually exclusive. If I love a game enough, I will pay the subscription, even if I do not like the idea of "paying again for a game I have already paid for". I understand the P2P system, I understand why it is needed, I understand why it would be more sustainable for the genre in the long run, so I am not going <REDACTED> on the forums about the matter.
  10. Zubbulon

    Zubbulon Cupcake

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    A voice of reason, wow.

    I have been paying sub for a long time. The premise was : you pay every month and the Dev puts more content in. I left wow because I had the feeling that was broken. the patch were few and far between. The world event exactly the same years after years...

    As many players, I was burned by the industry. Then I started to read about wildstar. Woupedydoo an other one, I though

    Is Wildstar a game worth the 15$ per month? maybe.

    Gaffney told Zam that in China companies started to put in new content faster to stop players from going to other games. Long speech short, In Chine they have a cycle of 21 days now. and its getting shorter. Then Gaffney went on to say that Carbine is aiming at a 4 weeks cycles. Carbine is using the beta to train their team to turn content out fast and well done.

    anyhoot, here's hoping that my 15$ per month will be well spent.
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  11. Bonehead

    Bonehead Cupcake

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    So box price, crudd ( cash shop ) , sub, and microtransactions dont = a cash grab but a <REDACTED>e game like waz z is because it was rubbish. So by that warped logic if wildstar is a rubbish game then it too will be a cash grab.
  12. Bonehead

    Bonehead Cupcake

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    Im not goiung <REDACTED> either, I just think $225 for the first year for a game is greedy and nothing more than a cash grab. If GW2 can give great value for money with just a box price then thats the way to go to insure a large and varied community.
  13. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    But GW2 can't? the server stability is average, the engine that runs it is sub-par as they picked up an engine not designed for exactly what they wanted. And then there is them ramming stuff in your face they want to sell, the black lion chests are an example of this, then there cash grab that was halloween. They put a chance in for your chests to drop special weapon skins that would sell for incredible amounts, but they were incredibly low drop rates from chests you essentially had to buy keys for to open, Cash grab much?

    What i am saying is games that don't operate with a sub model, kinda need to ram sales options in your face in order to get by, they have to ''force'' you to buy stuff or you are going to miss out on stuff. The beauty of a sub based game is that you are getting the entire game without them trying to do this, they can focus more on making the game fun and having content in the game for people to do because this is how their game survives.

    If the content is bad in a sub based game, people simply won't play it, this means that they are then putting more pressure on themselves to put out quality instead of coming up with ways to entice people to part with their money.

    Personally i would much rather the Devs focus more on making a quality game than focusing on how they are going to take my money, because they already have my money with the sub, they then have expectations to live up to from a quality point of view.
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  14. Bonehead

    Bonehead Cupcake

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    As we have seen, subs are no guarantee of quality and nothing about this WOW clone suggests it will be any different, it does not bode well that they have delayed to redesign a major part of the game.....

    I do not agree with your critcism of GW2, I certainly have not seen any of these issues but if you could point me in the right direction ill be glad look at the evidence.
  15. Chooby

    Chooby Cupcake

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    CREDD affects the in-game economy. Anything that alters the in-game economy from a real money source harms the overall experience IMO.

    Regardless, I am still excited for the game and curious to see how this plays out. I hope Carbine really polishes up the game and makes it worthy of a $60 purchase + sub costs.
  16. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    You cannot compare an MMO market to a real world market (EVE is somewhat close, but not quite). We are all speculating here, we have no idea how it will work in the end. Yes, the real market works the way you describe, but the economy in the MMO? Depends on a lot of factors in that specific MMO. As mentioned, depends on how the gold sinks work, on how much gold is generated, etc. If there is too much gold, CREDD will not work. If there is too little gold, CREDD will not work. So we have to see if they hit that sweet spot, or if they miss it.

    I'm hoping for the best, but I do not have your blind trust that this will somehow balance itself out... Carbine has a lot of work to do to balance this, and it is very easy to mess up.
  17. Vyril

    Vyril Cupcake-About-Town

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    How can $225 for a year of heavy updates and content be greedy?

    GW2 give great value? Not really GW2 numbers show it wasn't a good value.

    It's silly to say because they have a box price and sub it won't get players. I tell you if you have 10 friends all playing a game and your not, looks like you're playing by yourself.

    I can afford things. If bunch of my friends are playing a game and they say its fun I'll pay to play with them.

    That's true value.
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  18. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    *Enter Teal'c voice*

    Indeed

    This is the reason I do not cry about P2P. I know it is the best option for the game, and for me as a individual player and think I get the best value out of the game for my particular playstyle with this payment model.

    Regardless I do not like to pay for a game I have already bought for 60$.

    In a perfect world where making a game wouldn't cost anything and producing content was free I wouldn't need to pay, but we do not live in this kind of a world so it's a big boo fkin hoo for me. I suck it up and pay my subscription. It's a good example of "what players want and what players need is sometimes mutually exclusive". I do not want to pay subscription, but the fact I do gives me a better and more enjoyable game, which in the end makes me happier little fellow.

    If Wildstar will have paid server and faction transfers, I will grin alittle tho I have to say. I have paid more money in WoW to move my characters around to play with my friends, than I have paid in order to play the game.
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  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    No, War Z was a cash grab because it was obviously thrown together to trade on the popularity of other franchises. On top of which there was the massive amount of saying "This game has stuff!" that it didn't (and still doesn't) have. Those things made it a cash grab. Kinda like how basically every movie tie in game is a cash grab.

    If Wildstar is a cash grab, then hasn't WoW been a cash grab since '05? Were you there protesting it too?
  20. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Yeah, but your speculation is based on "it can happen!" instead of the data we have from similar systems. You can wake up tomorrow and be transported to Mars too, but for it to realistically happen you would need to wait longer than the lifespan of the universe. Yes, math is fun!

    Bull. Credd is going to work either way. If there is "too much gold" then there is little need for the average player (leaving it for the below average time wise) player to buy, making it scarce and therefore expensive. If there is "not enough gold" then more people end up spending money on Credd to boost gold production, which actually lowers the cost two fold. Once for their being lots of Credd in the system (scarcity) but again because the average player cannot spend lots of gold on it because as you say, there is not a lot of gold.

    The only "work" Carbine has to do is keep an eye on how many people are buying up and sitting on Credd, and how Credd is being distributed. Those powerbrokers are going to be one of the biggest signs of illegal 3rd party Credd sales. Ie generate tons of gold through botting, buy up all the Credd. Sell Credd for $10 per, aswell as gold gained through quick scarcity cycles.

    As for the comment about not being able to compare an mmo market to the real world, that is actually false. There is a significant number of cross over, at all levels. When people log into a virtual world they do not suddenly stop being people. Our knowledge, tactics, worries, fears, predispositions, all come with us. I can point you to several published papers that say exactly that. Is an mmo economy a direct representation of a real world one, no. Does it operate under many of the same rules, and do the same rules tend to apply, yes. As in all things, its all a manner of scale.

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