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So, with this C.R.E.D.D system?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Gunghoe, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Wow, you really love to simplify things, don't you? Things are not that simple. You cannot simply drop any product into a market and expect it work work fine due to supply/demand. The market must be able to support the product.

    I cannot drop a $200,000 luxury car into a market where the average income is $500 a month... Supply and demand does absolutely NOTHING in that case. Even if there is a huge supply if the $200,000 cars, the price of the cars will never get down to $10,000 or something that market can pay for it. Never. The supply will be there, but no demand simply because the market cannot support it.

    Same with the CREDDs. The CREDD does not come out of thin air, it has a very real production value to it. It costs $20 dollars to produce. That's $20 of real, hard, cash. People that pay $20 for the CREDD, will expect a certain amount of gold for it. They are not just going to go "oh, look! there is so much supply, that the price of the CREDD is 10 gold that I can make in 2 hours... Sure, let's go ahead and sell it!!". That will not happen. CREDDs will have a minimum value that people will not sell them for less than that. People will not sell at a loss.

    This is where Carbine comes in. Ok, so we take that minimum value expected of the CREDD, let's call it X. If people can make that X with heavy farming in a month, then it's probably not that bad. However, if the gold making vs. the gold sinks in the game are wrong, and you cannot make X in a month, nor 2, but 3, then it will be a broken system. Same thing if you can make X in 1 week of playing, it will break the system as well.

    Supply vs. demand is not the magic solution you seen to think it is. It will try to balance the market, sure, but the market itself has to support the product, or it will fail from the start.
  2. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    There is a secondary problem with the CREDD system... Once the price of the CREDD stabilizes, then the in-game gold will have an actual $ value attached to it...

    If, for example, the average price of a CREDD gets to be 500 gold, that means that 1 gold = 0.04 dollaers. 4 cents per gold... So whenever an item is released (cosmetic or otherwise) with a gold cost, it can be immediately converted to $ cost.

    A new "My Little Pony" mount comes out that costs 1500 gold... Well... Looking at it another way, the actual cost of the mount will be $60... The EVE monocle debate was the extreme case of this, but something similar could happen...

    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/07/monocles/

    Carbine has to really tread carefully with this. At least they can learn a lot from EVE...
  3. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    You need to reread what I wrote because that is covered. Nice job attempting to use absurd extremes to illustrate your point though!

    Except Carbine has absolutely nothing to do with the expected cost. That is set entirely by the market. You make the statement that "Credd has a $20 production value" when that money is only realistically going to be spent by people who know what that is going to buy them. There are always those who will gamble and buy it to start (they are called first adopters, they tend to take the brunt of any system) and they understand its gambling. Not that this will matter because those markets tend to become pretty clear after the first week in an mmo.

    The cost of Credd (in gold) will not be static. It will fluctuate. That is a given. How much it fluctuates depends on both supply and demand. Demand will be high unless there is more than enough supply to meet it and drive it down (more Credd entering the system than those who want to buy it, as in they already have a year saved up why would you buy more?). That condition is unlikely to occur though because of how the playerbase operates. Supply is automatically managed by demand. The only reason to buy Credd is if you need the gold it sells for (yes, there are other reasons, like gifting, but those tend to be a tiny portion and do not effect the market directly) which due to high demand will be as high as the market will allow. Meaning, if average players already have access to all of the gold they need, then only those with more money than will buy it. Making supply scarce, and driving the price up. It is a bell curve.

    Implying there is a problem. I never proposed supply and demand as a solution because there is no problem. You are jumping at shadows in a well lit room. People at the top of the bell curve are unlikely to be able to afford Credd on a monthly basis without moving to the high end. That is by design. That is only a "broken system" if you honestly believe that "normal play" should equate play for free, which is preposterous as that does break the system.

    This is the same thinking that got us that retarded White House petition. "If we throw a big enough fit they will listen!". Its absurd, unfair, and frankly you should be ashamed. I know you have far too much temerity for that, but damn, I can still dream. Why do players such as yourself believe that game costs should drop when the cost to make them continues to skyrocket? That is not how business works. Continuing to beg and throw temper tantrums for it is the very reason why AAA titles do not, and really cannot, innovate. You are quite literally your own worst enemy.
    Kataryna likes this.
  4. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i can understand the concerns of those who are against the buisness model. maybe some like me are coming from wow and feel burnt out on a sub based game that has failed to deliver on some accounts and isnt interesting them like it used to.
    some are probably from b2p and f2p models that feel the barrier of box+sub is a deterrance to getting into it. for them i would say the credd system seems perfect .
    anyways i am in support of the system in place. i will be able to decide in a months time of free gameplay for only the price of the box which will last longer than some console game to begin with if i want to continue to play . all in all it is a good thing.
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  5. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Because in Wildstar you can pay for a subscription with gold. I highly doubt gold will be as fluid in Wildstar as in WoW, and if it is, then CREED will end up costing millions of gold for one. Whatever the balance ends up being, I would not expect CREED to be something you could casually afford and then go about your business.

    Maybe, but those games just don't work at all, so. . .

    If WoW can't make it work then nobody can. Literally.

    I can't say that the GW2 server stability is bad. The game is almost never down for any length of time at all, most MMOs seem to have hours if not days of downtime on a fairly regular basis.

    No. That's a perfectly good method of earning income. You do not need to buy any black lion keys if you don't want to, none of the things inside the chest are necessary, you can get free keys via gameplay, and you can buy the resulting items on the TP for gold if you like. I can't think of a better way they could manage that.

    Oh? How much of a subscription game can you play if you don't drop $15 into their "cash shop" each month? You can play 100% of GW2 without spending a penny.

    Likewise with a F2P, if they don't keep the game entertaining then why would people pay to get virtual items inside it?

    It is a WoW clone though. Like most WoW clones, they deviate from the mold at least a little, but this game deviates no more than TOR did, and it was widely considered to be a WoW clone.

    What? GW2's doign great, what about GW2's numbers "show that it wasn't a great value?"

    Yes, but more people quit WoW over the past year than joined GW2. WoW has large sub numbers, but they are in decline, it will take a while for all those players to quit, but they will eventually, and when they do, they aren't going to want to sign up for the same old thing all over again. Here's a commend from a good article on Forbes about why TOR failed as a P2P:

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  6. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Dude, you still think the economy in Wildstar will run as a free market? Where do you get that idea? The price of the CREDD, in game, and outside it, will be set by Carbine.

    Carbine controls how much god you can farm per hour/day/week. Carbine controls how much gold you need to pay for repairs. Carbine controls how much gold you will need to pay to keep the warplot running. Carbine determines how many materials it requires to craft the "Sword of Awesomeness". Carbine determines if you character lives, or dies. Carbine determines EVERYTHING.

    There is no free market, there is nothing of the sort. It is a controlled environment where Carbine controls every single tiny number. They can change those numbers at will as well. Players not getting enough money? BOOM!! drops are now 25% more plentiful. Too much money in the system? BOOM! -10% on all gold drops...

    "Carbine has nothing to do with the expected cost"... That statement cannot be further from the truth. On a closed system completely under the control of the developer... Really...

    Gosh... Supply and demand... On a closed system. You know, Carbine could simply create 10000 CREDDs out if thin air and put them on the market. They could also "buy" the cheap CREDDs to take them out of the market (driving the price up)... I'm not saying they will, but they "could". There is no free market here, it is all under the control of the developer.

    Look, I want the game to succeed, and while I do not think the business model is the best for this type of game, I really hope they can make it work. All I'm saying is that I hope Carbine is up to the task of making all those little numbers fit properly, or things can go really bad, really quick... And since they control every little thing, they better keep a good eye on them all.
    DruidicWolf and Bonehead like this.
  7. Ashardalon

    Ashardalon New Cupcake

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    Canada, eh?

    I guess I can use my excuse as a Canadian to not really know which White House petition you're talking about. I'm just saying that if they lower it they'll probably have a greater amount of people buying it, either: A) Making the same amount of money, or:
    B) Making more in the long run but less at launch

    I don't see why I should be ashamed for stating what I think. I understand that costs skyrocket. I share the same opinion as many other people, so I would appreciate it, good sir, if you would refrain from the harsh words.
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  8. Baamz

    Baamz New Cupcake

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    Carbine has stated that any intervention they do in the market will be publicly visible and not hidden. Im not taking sides on the free market issue, just putting that out there
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  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    and Gaffney has said, when asked how much a CREDD will cost in in-game gold has said straight up "I have NO idea!"
  10. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    And yet they still have way more people then GW2. When they go under 3mil 5 more years down the line you might have an argument. But even then it wouldn't be because of the buisness model it would be because its a 15 YEAR OLD GAME. You cant look at wow and say its losing subs only because people have to pay 15 dollars a month.

    Do you still call every fps that comes out a doom clone? By that logic, wow is actually an EQ clone. But wait, its almost like genres are iterative, who would have thought.

    That sounds like opinion to me. To me, this just a step below selling power. It is downright exploitative and if anything like black lion chests finds its way into wildstar, ill have to think long and hard about weather i want to keep playing.

    You also ignored the majority of my post. Again, rift took 2 whole years to go F2P. What makes you think a game with action combat more side activities and a longer leveling game wont do even better. Lack of content is the only think that stops the P2P model from working.
  11. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I know, I trust they won't... I'm just putting that out there as an example that the market prices in Wildstar will be far from free flowing... Carbine controls gold creation, and gold sinks, and that creates the value of gold... They also set a $ on gold as well with the CREDDs... Hope it does not generate too much controversy.
  12. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    These guys are not in the game....


    [​IMG]


    one of the basic tactics of trolling, is intentionally misspelling words in order to provoke a response, the angrier the better. People keep saying they aren't trolling, with big innocent deer eyes, but continue to post things that follow the most basic descriptions of trolling and baiting.
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except none of that matters. Carbine is not as stupid as Russia. They know you cannot just print more money and expect it to come out ok. Nor can you just make currency disappear without consequences. Take off your tinfoil hat and think for a minute.

    But they don't, and they really can't. And it would be stupid for them to try for many, many reasons. Once you set rules in the game breaking them as a developer is horribly damaging to the playerbase. For a game that you "really want to succeed" you sure think awfully little of Carbine.
  14. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I know that changing the system later on is a bad idea. That's why I'm saying this now before the game is released. They cannot make big changes later on, only smaller ones. I'm the voice of dissension saying that things could go wrong, and they should be careful. Just taking the role of the 10th man I guess.

    That's why I hope they check, and re-check, and then check again the numbers, and make sure they are all as best as they possibly can be. I'm saying this exactly because I want the game to succeed. I could just sit quietly and say "Yay!! Carbine are perfect, they can do no wrong!", or write down my opinions on the possible downside of the system. If some voices of dissent can make then check the numbers once more, and refine the system more, then the better it will be for the game.
  15. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    heh would you rather have a set ammount that you know youre going to get each month or money you MIGHT get each month . i would go with the sure thing .
  16. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sure things sound good, until you see a rent controlled neighborhood. Generaly setting prices is best left to the free market. What would happen if more people wanted to buy credd at the price they set then people wanted to sell.
  17. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    The White House one has already been taken down but this one is still up:
    http://www.change.org/petitions/war...the-superman-batman-movie?share_id=sULaHufwNf

    Option A is a mixed bag with all sorts of data going either way. It can work that way, but generally does not. Though that depends a great deal on the product, its market, etc etc. There is no definitive answer that it is the case. As in all things there are a number of pro's/con's and how it effects the playerbase and retention. We can argue the merit of that till we are blue in the face and not reach a conclusion.

    Option B however is virtually never the case, especially with the demographic they are targeting. On top of which there is the ever present investors demanding recompense for the $100m and 6 years they have already had to wait for their return. High upfront pleases them, and adds nicely to free publicity. Growing a playerbase is infinitely harder than keeping one playing, and retention is king for making money in the long run.

    And I would appreciate it if you would have an informed opinion before farting it onto the forum. Clearly we do not all get what we want. Just because you have thoughts and a voice does not mean you actually have something to add to the discussion besides white noise. The costs to make games have nearly doubled in the last 5 years alone, how much have game prices gone up? You don't want harsh words, then do not say things worthy of scorn and derision.
  18. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    with the sub/credd model they get to do both. the credd being the MIGHT. and the sub being the WILL HAVE.
    i dont see the problem with credd being its double blind . someone buying credd to sell cant sell it to a specific other player they sell it for a price and the other side buys it for the lowest price on there. gold sellers cant profit from it.
    also the only hijinks i could see on carbines part is to manually buy the credd themselves acting like a player did and profit denying the players who depend on credd for their subs thus causing them to pay a sub for one more month to have time to get the gold to buy credd.

    not that i think they would be nefarious enough to do that of course.:rolleyes:
  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Where have I said they can do no wrong? In fact I see very little of that on this forum. What I do see is that everything you are going on about has already been seen and considered. The things you say can go wrong, don't go wrong.
  20. Gunghoe

    Gunghoe Cupcake-About-Town

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    How can one be a fanboy of a game that is not out yet, Some of us love most of the ideas here, and thats why at least im here. Personally, I think the games ideas are pretty good. But calling others fanboys for calling a troll out is a different matter. Your posts that some of these people quoted are simply here to get what you quoted and what the other guys are on about. You got what you wanted, you got confronted, and deny you are a troll. The thing is, there are those that like the "idea of the game" and you come here to spew nonsense to bait people to either Disagree, or to the point like your self and a different person is doing rather well in this thread, you both are trolling. One does bring up some points, you do not. In other words you are a bad troll, and are helping derail what the thread is about. Same with the other person, she has some valid points, but also in the wrong thread. This is to discuss the Credd system not if P2P or F2P or B2P should be the thing looked at. There is a main thread about this in the news section. This thread is about the Credd system. Not the payment model.

    Go ahead, and go to Star Citizen and tell them they are being tricked. The game is a big cash grab. And they should not charge $1250 for a nice ship. Among with other things like This game is going to disappoint, or anything else inflammatory to the game. This is called trolling. Trust me especially with that game, there is no room for trolling and you will be called on it in a heart beat.

    Here we are just about as bored as you, have no money involved and currently we have nothing new to talk about other than the next faze of beta coming october. (i do not even think there is a thread about that yet) So we go ahead and feed the trolls, with other troll comments because well we are waiting for this game, at least attempting to discuss it.

    Now that i have that out of the way. I am still concerned how this system may work, and if it will work. If you can add to this discussion, add too it. If you cant, and want to talk about payment model and not about credd there is a Main thread about that.

    Please keep the discussion on topic, I find it weird that the thread i created got derailed to the point i was away for many many pages. All in all Trolls are being successful in this thread and they should go away.

    And you are the one that brought up age as a discussion point, and added personal insults, really are you that low, to go there to defend your point. If anything you made it worse on yourself.

    How will the C.R.E.D.D system work in this type of game?
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