Soloing to max level; some thoughts.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Dayor Knight, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Another single player in mmo's thread, I always enjoy these :)


    Maybe the real quest was to make a friend? ^^

    Fair point, but I think this is more of a facet of how worlds have been too large, level disparities have become too deep. Somewhere out there over the horizon is another player who wants to group up with someone, its just that you're not capable of helping them and they gain nothing from helping you because your experiences are slightly out of sync. Honestly, we could stand to move beyond levels, zelda didnt need levels, portal didnt need levels- there is a whole world of mechanisms for advancement that dont spaghettify players into a hundred incompatible tranches. After that its just a matter of proper group finding tools being implemented.

    I really like that solo instances are only above the dotted line (link in description)



    MMO's are selling more than a game experience, they sell a community experience, to be among skillful conscientious players. Requiring group participation is the forge that turns terrible, greedy jerks into skillful, conscientious players.

    What sacrifice?

    Describing your ingame relationships as impersonal business interactions is telling. Go make friends, join a guild, put together guild pugs, show up for raid time even if you dont have a seat, know the fights, bring spare stims, be entertaining in vent when its appropriate, dont hog all the gear etc.

    Leveling is just the tutorial to prepare you for having other people rely on you in a raid environment. They dont throw all the tools at new players all at once, they introduce them in little dribbles right until the player hits max level: thats when the game starts.

    dont complain that you picked a game whose primary feature (multiplayer) isnt catering to your appetite (singleplayer).

    Hear, hear.





    Humans are carnivorous, social animals. Spicy food and group dynamics are acquired tastes. Bland mush, barely discernible from oatmeal isn't chili, and mass multiplayer online games are not about soloing while being around alot of players. The winning mmo strategy is to convert players into raiders, not to poach "game of the month" players, they'll slip away to the next big thing next month.


    If the quest is green, skip it.


    ~long tangents on difficulty leveling non dps characters in early games~
    R in rpg means role, people will seek you out for the things they need you to do, you will seek others out for the things you need them to do, its the building blocks of a community.


    Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, there is a world of difference between dps gear and tank gear, as well as addons, button layouts, players having asymetric skillsets (knowing how to dps great while staying out of the fire, but nothing about how or when to execute a tank swap, or how to keep a tank up in general). The heals/dps transition isnt so bad, theres often a good amount of overlap, but there are usually some rough edges, like attributes that only help dps characters that keep a hybrid class being a genuine dual spec without fleshing out two full sets of gear and playstyles as if they were playing two wholly different characters (may as well roll an alt at that point, more manageable).
  2. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Digging up this thread again, are we. So be it.

    I see I've been quoted a couple times, I'll address those first:

    The "sacrifice" I mentioned would be the one where people insist that instance matchmaking must be removed in order to foster a more robust server community. It relates to the assertion that requiring groups for basic tasks (like leveling alts)makes for "better community". Many of us feel that it does not.

    The "impersonal business transactions" I mentioned were in reference to the same thing. The "lf2m, tank and healer" days people seem to pine for with such ardor and affection.

    As for the rest of the disjointed monologue in the post above mine: you think MMOs are about raiding and making friends. Super. We don't all agree.
  3. Outburstz

    Outburstz Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    USA
    If you solo this game your going to be missing out on a lot of stuff from what I see. I normally start a game solo but as this rate I might need to get a group together to experience everything which I don't have a problem with.

    That first dungeon looks so awesome.
  4. Kerphos

    Kerphos New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I see where you're going with this, but let me stop you for a second.

    We've got SO much Groupcontent in MMO's that it would be crazy if there wasn't anything for solo players. Imagine Mario Kart without a singleplayer and then try unlocking stuff - You NEED people then and they need to be there all.The.Time.

    So all in all, while leveling and just "unlocking" your character, I think it is fine to be able to solo it. I agree with Extatica here - Solo AND group content should be possible.

    I also agree with the opinion of Apostate - don't say "This genre is defined by X.". Don't do that. Not if X is this unspecific. It says massive Multiplayer not Massive Co-Op multiplayer, aye?

    On the other hand: this'd make for an interesting new gen game, but as longlasting as MMO's are and as much as I love groupplay, most of my buddies don't play as much as I do or are online when I'm not and vise versa. I don't want to rely on them for EVERYTHING, I do however want group play do be important.

    I think it is fine how it is in W* - Group up if you want to, if you don't then - don't.
    Apostate likes this.
  5. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    I'm happy there will be options for both. Will I solo a lot ?depends on when I play but probably. Will I group with friends and folks I meet? Of course! When I can and have the time, you bet your cupcake I will.

    Options is awesome. I don't want to run out of ways to play a certain way anytime soon.
    Vyver, BonusStage and Apostate like this.
  6. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    63
    i like to solo because when leveling with groups of people most of them rush trough content and dont take time to pay atention to things.

    Listening to NPC dialogue or reading the lore.

    Grouping should be more efficient.

    Soloing should be viable

    Once again people think levels should be important, when i feel it should not, progression starts at the level cap not before that, those levels that lead you to the cap are a tutorial for the game.

    i tend to prefer skill based games over level based games , sandbox to theme parks, i dont see level as a sign of skill, and i dont think it should require much skill or time to level, leveling should always be a casual aspect of the game.
    Zwipe likes this.
  7. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    You misunderstand the nature of the complaint- when the people you auto match with are on different servers, you lose the ability to build up a list of contacts, people who you know are skillful and pleasant to be around, because everyone you play with is on some other server. Wildstar is going megaserver, which is excellent. Wow is also going virtual servers soon, which is a half fix, but enough of a fix without everyone having to rename.

    Asking in public chat is a matter of last recourse, only after guild members and their friends lists have been exhausted. People interested in making their guild work will often have two raiding characters (dps and tank or dps and healer) in order to make the overall week to week logistics smoother. People want to play with people who know how to play well.

    We're talking about a genre that has always given top gear to the players who are willing to act as a team. We can make it even more generalized too- fps and moba games have a teamwork component that are decisive in deciding who wins or loses matches, they're still co op, but its just as true.
  8. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    No, I don't misunderstand the nature of the complaint. You assume the content of every discussion I've been in. I've taken part in such discussions more than once or twice. If you intend to tell me that I've misunderstood the opposition every time, you and I will not be getting along well.

    You also assume that everyone wants to be in a guild, or in a guild large enough to not require regular pugging. The only guilds I've ever been happy in were ones with half a dozen members or fewer. Likewise, I prefer to keep my list of "friends" in games small. It's a personal choice. I'm willing and able to play with others, I enjoy teamwork, but I don't play MMOs to meet a bunch of new people and make a bunch of new friends.

    In response to your final point: we're talking about a genre where not every player's motivation is the acquisition of top gear.
  9. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    You leave me to make assumptions, so I make assumptions. You havn't given me anything new to think about on the issue. Life goes on I suppose.

    Have you considered games like diablo, torchlight, path of exile etc? They're much more geared toward the insular experience you seem to be describing.
  10. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    At no point did I express any degree of discontent with MMOs. I'm quite happy with them as they are. Which is why I take such a dim view of attempts to say that there is only one acceptable way to play games of the genre. You have your preferred way. There are people who share it. I have my preferred way. There are people who share it. There are many kinds of people who play MMOs and many different reasons for playing them.

    If your reason for playing MMOs is to raid and make friends, that's fine. It's perfectly legitimate and I think you should be able to enjoy that. I, personally, don't enjoy raiding and I have very little in common with most people, so I don't go into games expecting to raid or make friends. What I do enjoy is exploration (both in the literal sense of roaming the world and in the broader sense of learning everything there is to know about a game), crafting, combat, small group content, and selectively socializing on message boards and the rare occasion when I meet someone I find interesting in-game. I'm increasingly beginning to enjoy PvP, as well.

    Only about half of what I do actually takes place solo. The rest of my time is either divided among playtime shared with friends I've made IRL or in the company of random people whose presence is merely a convenience to me. I will interact with others to the extent I'm required to achieve my goals, and I will do it civilly, but I don't view it as a bonding experience. When I try out a new MMO, I don't think, "Boy, I sure hope I make some new friends!" but rather, "I look forward to exploring this immense world and learning the nuances of its systems design."

    MMOs are some of the most complex games in existence. They are a symphony of disparate elements, composed and conducted with great care (ideally), and comprised entirely of moving parts. The people who make them are required to be part engineer, part storyteller, part sociologist and part oracle.

    I love MMOs with a great passion. I love people... somewhat less. Individuals unable (or worse, unwilling) to discern the difference between the two won't get very far with me.
    Vyver likes this.
  11. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Trophy Points:
    93
    ignoring the latter "filthy casual vs. uber raider" argument going on, I want to make a comment about the OPs mention of "class homogenization" and how that's a. not as horrible as it sounds, and b. has nothing to do with casual solo players

    I know I know, you're like "but casual solo players wanting to solo everything made developers dumb down classes so they could survive instead of having a ton of little widget classes"

    well I know what you're saying, and..you're kinda wrong...okay a lot wrong.

    you know what killed specialized classes?

    players competitive nature and min-maxing, especially when it comes to pvp and raiding (haha the call was coming from inside the house)

    seriously, who wants to play a class that does + 50 damage to undead but sucks at everything else? (especially if other player characters dont count as undead) who wants to level a class that does pure fire damage when much of the end-game content is immune to elemental damage?

    players were willing to sacrifice creativity for optimization, even in a group setting, every time. And developers simply went along for the ride.

    of course, now we have class "specializations" that are basically the same thing but doesn't require you to level a whole separate class, and even those are picked apart and ignored in the ever-long quest to be "optimal"

    Sure, casuals might have benefited from that game change, but they certainly didn't cause it

    so yeah, I'll play in a group when a raider picks a suboptimal class spec just for flavor
    Apostate likes this.
  12. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Why get the exploration, crafting, combat, and selectively socializing on message boards from an mmo though? Theres the whole elder scrolls franchise, the whole mass effect franchise, the whole fallout franchise etc to chew through- no subscription, no lag. Theres something drawing you to mmo's (unreleased mmo's at that), and that is prestige, its not enough to accomplish, but you also want prestige.

    As classes wax and wane with balancing, people find themselves playing sub optimal characters all the time. Priests got their time in the sun too.
    Things like only having one class that could cc, only one class that could interrupt, only one class could run fast enough to kite etc had the advantage of making the raid branch out into the server population more, but players dont like having to pick and giving everyone more utility makes for a more engaging experience.
  13. Genoshock

    Genoshock Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    London (Shanghai)
    Honestly fine with that... I normally do that...

    However I will do the server dungeon finder when i get quests for those dungeons! or if there are daily dungeons or something :D >>> however i do like to invite people to group that happen to be doing the same content i am... but its only as long as we are in the same subzones
  14. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    As a member of the glorious raiding master race I feel the need to mention that I fully support making the whole leveling process soloable.
    Why? because I don't want other players to slow me down, people can wax philosphical about how it's the journey not the destination all they want but for me an MMO begins at endgame and getting there as fast and as easily as I possibly can is my goal when it comes to leveling a main.
    Having to be in a group to quest is such an antiquated idea that it's fossilised as far as I'm concerned.
    Apostate and Genoshock like this.
  15. Reiketsu

    Reiketsu New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    This topic has been an interesting read so far, might as well toss my two cents in.

    Forced grouping to reach max level is a bad idea. Back in AO when you picked up an odd person for a group, getting a bad apple was the exception vice the rule. If you did get a bad apple, their name got around really quick.
    Nowdays if you pug, you have little Timmy Snotslinger yelling at you because his epeenometer is saying that you are doing .01% less damage than HE thinks you should be doing. One of my favorites, run a dungeon for 2 hours, and when the final boss is a hair from dead, everybody (except the 3 guildies) get kicked out of the group. Then again you might just get told that your gear isn't good enough because it's not over 9000 higher than the minimum required.

    Yep, your average joe could join a guild. Your only purpose in most guilds is to have your head far enough up the GL's butt that when one of his little clique isn't on, you may get thrown a scrap.

    Now, after MANY years, I have found a decent guild. All of us are active/retired military. No drama, no cliques, we get <REDACTED> done. So, you must be thinking I would be all set right? I'm retired, I sometimes log into a game at 6 or 7 in the morning. Most of us are still active duty, so now I have a game that I'm (potentially) paying a monthly fee for that I'm locked out of for at least 8 hours every day.

    You can force grouping, but the only people that will play the game, are the people that you don't want to group with.
    Apostate likes this.
  16. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I've been playing The Secret World for a bit now, and that game is actually a bit old school when it comes to group vs solo. A fair amount of the game is actually a bit too hard to do solo. It can be done, but unless you build a really sold survival build, it can be kind of painful.

    There's also a fair number of dungeons that require groups, at least 1 per area.

    But on their msg boards the head dev mentioned that the more you force people to group up for content, the less people will be willing to take part in that content.

    The history of MMO's have proven one thing, over and over again. The more you try to force people to play a given way, the fewer people will play it. The more options you give the more people will play it.

    So while there may be a place out there for that spiritual successor of EQ, anyone making it would likely need to do so with about the same budget that EQ had, if they want to be able to make a profit. Vanguard tried to be that game...
    Apostate likes this.
  17. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I stated quite plainly that I enjoy playing online with friends and that I have no problem using other people to achieve my in-game goals. But because I don't approach this with the proper degree of sentimental reverence, it's apparently inadmissable as evidence. It's not enough to play with other people, I have to feel warm and fuzzy about playing with other people.

    Got it. I think we're done here.
  18. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    160
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Leveling with groups is a pain in the ass, unless everybody is really on the same life schedule. In a new game that's going to be tough. There is a lot that WoW did right I think in terms of solo leveling and group leveling. Solo to max level was tough, but doable and not really notably slower. But there were elite quests which were fun and the XP was definitely worthwhile if you could find a group.

    I do want to see content soloable to the max level so that is is an OPTION. But I would like group play to be incentivised. Maybe constant group play is too much. But group play for a certain quest chain or some other system to enable it. That way it can be skipped if need be, but there is still a good reason to do it.
    Zwipe and Reiketsu like this.
  19. BigHawngry

    BigHawngry New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    1
    It depends on if they lower exp because your in a party.
    if they don't do that then I'm rolling 5 deep all day ery day.
  20. Riuuki

    Riuuki Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    England
    An MMO is made for a certain amount of players, but that shouldn't mean it's a CO-OP game.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again, I've always been a solo player.. In other MMOs I'd only join groups for the following: 5man quest which is impossible for my class or dungeons/raids.

    I also know for a fact that there are ways a solo player can achieve "somewhat" the same greatness as those in large groups in WildStar, Carbine wanted to get this point across a lot.

    If you want to solo, solo your heart out sunshine!

    If you can't solo it, use someone else to achieve your goal.
    Zwipe likes this.

Share This Page