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Some concerns following the recent Twitch TV broadcast

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by JackyVee, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    I'm a big HUGE fan of this game.

    It's why we're here, isn't it? We've all seen the videos on the official site more times than we'd dare admit. We've scoured third party sites for information. We've stumbled across Wildstar Central and then soaked up every new piece of information we could find, from old videos filmed at conventions to developer tweets about their lunch, and everything in-between.

    So it's no surprise that such a large amount of us tuned in for (or caught up on) the live stream.

    There was a lot of old information that we already knew conveyed in this inaugural episode. It was nice to see what looked like some animation improvements, not to mention a crisper introduction to the zones and the level of difficulty at which the game currently sits. (Something we know will change over time.) The devs were right too, for a temporary interface it isn't so bad, though there is obviously room for a sleeker, more constructed UI.

    But I do have some concerns which arose during the dev-led foray into Nexus.

    It's important to bear in mind that my opinions are simply that, opinions. They are subject to dispute and wildly based on the small percentage of the game that we have seen. Here they are regardless, and please do try to respond with the same manner of objectivity that I try to employ when attempting to calm such worries. (I'm looking at you, Chua.)

    1. The 'big' ability - The combat is cool. Really cool. I'm certain that the entertainment value of that alone is enough to sustain even the hungriest of us. What I'm worried about is that there doesn't seem to be a particular spell or ability revealed thus far that has that special something. Flashy, show-off , over-the-top effects for the more narcissistic of us. (You may, of course, feel differently and I'd hope for as much.)

    2. The value of the LAS - I'm all for this concept. Picking ability loadouts that best serve the situation you are in. Variety is the spice of life, however, and the gameplay videos seem to focus on very few abilities from the action bar, rendering the others dangerously close to being niche or at worst, unnecessary. It wouldn't be unlike devs to be hiding away a lot of the tools available to classes though. Action combat with only 2 or 3 main combat buttons could get stale.

    3. Spellslingers and range - This point is very specific to Spellslingers. Although I missed what level the Mordesh Slinger was in the feed, he was referred to as being 'high' - So as a ranged class, why is so much of the combat at melee distance? I hope Slingers have a few more tools at their disposal to keep distance beyond the (admittedly very cool) Gate ability.
    Bear in mind that these are 3 rather minor concerns that are weighed up against hundreds of brilliant positives about the game. The devs are doing a truly fantastic job and I know I've yet to be as excited for a game as I am for Wildstar. The chances are my theories could easily be debunked, and such a thing will fulfil the purpose of this thread.

    TLDR: Minor concerns about the lack of a super show-off pew-pew spell/ability, few abilties being used from the pool available in each loadout, and the potential issues of Spellslingers and their ability to stay away from melee range for longer.

    (DISCLAIMER: It's very late, there may be spelling mistakes and such here, but don't let that undermine my points. Also, I'm definitely attempting to articulate these concerns in a civilised way, please do try to respond with the same level of respect... Chua, I'm still looking at you.)

    JackyVee
  2. Vermana

    Vermana Cupcake-About-Town

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    1) Neither character was close to max level, nor did the level 35 Slinger use all of its abilities. He only used the ones on his LAS, so there might have been some long-CD, high-damage flashy spells in there that went unused. Even without those though, I think the movement style of the combat makes the combat flashy enough that you don't NEED a flashy "Ultimate" ability.

    2) Again he was using ONE build on his LAS, and never swapped it up. So this video is not nearly enough evidence to state that the combat might be stale. All you need is 3 or 4 abilities (resource consumers, auto attack, and builder) that you used in every fight to feel like you're doing a lot, and having four extra slots in your LAS for niche abilities makes life-or-death decision making a common thing. I think the current setup is great.

    3) Spellslingers look like WoW mages. He didn't have much CC in his build, so he was like a Fire Mage. Lots of damage, but enemies close in fast. That's why he was in close range the whole time, because he was fighting monsters that you can't really kite and he had no CC to kite them with.
    If he ran a build with lots of CC and at least two slows, he would be fighting at long range. It's not that the Spellslinger is a close range character, it's that his build was a close range build.
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  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    you forgot to put "like this spell ____ from xyz game, for example" ( examples are great for showing people exactly what your particular definition is of flashy, over the top. )

    Also, the LAS gets commented on in every single video that comes out, and they have explained at least a million times that these videos use the same demo build that has only 1 layout.
  4. Zinn

    Zinn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Looking at the video. He had two abilities on long cool downs that he used a lot. Both CDs looked to be over 15 secs. He used these two abilities a lot as they were on CD quite a bit. He had an opener and I assume he had a finisher. That is 4 regular abilities. He also had Gate which he used quite a bit and I believe he had another stun which he used as well. I might be wrong about the second stun but I thought he used another stun without the gate to keep the mobs in the red during the soldier mission. That is 6 regular abilities he used out of 9. He also had what looked like a heal ability on his bar.

    Keep in mind this was also the old build before all the combat changes so a lot will change. As Scooter said in the video this is the last time we will see the old build in a video.
  5. Ianpact

    Ianpact Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would think it might be better to post this in WildStar Official Livestream Pilot Episode Aired as it's apparent Scooter and team will be looking in on this specific thread, especially as your questions were brought up by the stream. They might look into answering them. ;)
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  6. Fluffyness

    Fluffyness New Cupcake

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    Honestly I feel your concerns but only share one.

    As for shiny, over-the-top abilities, yeah. They look pretty crazy but if you really look at the skills and not just the particle effects spellslinger for example has a pretty robust skillset even though only a fraction has been released. http://wildstar.gamepedia.com/Spellslinger If you watch the zap-robo world pvp video you can see a few more that aren't on this list. But rest assured that just on this tiny list there are dots, burst, sustained, gap closers, outs, slows, roots, teleports and speed buffs. Full skill lists are the one thing I'm still foaming at the mouth to get hold of.

    The spellslinger bit with no cc, again I'll refer to the zap-robo world pvp video:
    . Once he gets a read on the particular warrior he faces a few times he kites the guy around like a <REDACTED>, rest assured they have enough of a range advantage to keep the melee classes at bay.

    As for your LAS bit, I am actually against the idea. Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love this game and the design philosophy behind it. I just hate knowing that I could be playing with 20-40 skills on my bar with a zillion keybinds all over the place(wow style) but can only use a 8 at a time. I understand the underlying strategy and balance components of the limited set but personally, until they turn me, I hate it.
  7. oppi26

    oppi26 Cupcake

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    I feel the need to remind everyone with a concern on range that
    1. you're only allowed the range the enemy gives you
    2. it is very hard to move and use abilities on a keyboard
    I use a gaming mouse. If I were streaming it'd be very different. I'd look much more ranged.
    The biggest thing is the enemy mechanics though. If they are melee they will run to you and hit you. Every game in existence works like this no mater how many "keep them away" abilities you have. The reason is because of PvP. If you could keep NPCs at range think of how badly you'd wreck players.
    Lastly: that was the old build so you shouldn't trust anything you saw.
  8. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    Thanks for the responses - I should clear up a few things:

    Please don't misinterpret any of these as an attack on our already beloved game, I don't base my opinions on nothing, but if these are the only concerns I could dig up then we're certainly in for a treat.

    I don't need spell or ability effects to be huge and flashy, certainly not for every spell. Visual orgasms come in all manner of forms and I know I'll be lapping them up a lot during the game. Also, I am aware that the developers may be hiding any such abilities as stated in the OP.

    I would expect them to come closer to max level, but perhaps I could have worded what I meant better: I hope there will be some flashy, big spells in the game, and if anyone has seen something I've missed do inform me, but if there isn't it certainly won't have a significant effect on the game and is merely my id craving the pew-pew.

    I did forget about the demo build they've been using all the time, and I suppose I glossed over the fact that some people will like hands-off builds, especially early on when the combat style requires some getting used to (for the more traditional MMO player). Do bear in mind also, that we've seen little of the Slinger compared to Stalkers and Warriors so far.

    Thanks for pointing that out. I suppose then, like my last point, that I hope there are some builds that work well for the more active-combat player, so to speak.

    I understand too much CC being an issue in PvP, and although I didn't perform a frame-by-frame analysis of the livestream, there was a great deal of being meleed by mobs that were much lower level than the Slinger and they were really beating on him. Generally, the lack of physical defence is countered by the ability to avoid damage slightly better (in PvP) and that is a very difficult balance to maintain. That said, this definitely isn't PvP built around every class vs every class being completely even. There will always be a paper-rock-scissors system of some form - balance is key not just inside each class, but among the layout of the teams too.

    Thanks for the responses guys, it is genuinely appreciated. As I said, if these are the biggest concerns I could scrape together, Wildstar is going to be a hell of a treat.
  9. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    Thanks! It was admittedly very late when I posted this so I'm surprised it even makes sense and wasn't in a bizarrely inappropriate forum, but it would be nice to hear responses direct from the devs' mouths and cut right through the conjecture.
  10. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    Thanks for this! That does actually calm a few worries. I'll be playing every class so I hope none of this is misinterpreted as wanting Spellslingers to be god mode, that'd be boring, but it is the class we've seen the least of in the standard PvE demonstration videos and various convention plays filmed on a mobile phone.
  11. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lemme say firstly that I really loved the video, and being able to get a nicer look at how the game plays in the longer run, as well as how the UI works etc. A lot of press videos consisted of showing off mechanics briefly and warping around etc, so seeing the game being actually played was way entertaining.
    I'm also looking forward to about 2 weeks in the future, where we might get to see the new classes and the recent build, rather than the rather very old press build they have been using so far.

    That said, since someone mentioned flashy spell effects, I'm actually VERY glad we aren't seeing too flashy stuff. This has always been an issue for me in many games, and GW2, final fantasy 14 and rift were particularly bad offenders in this. You know you have a problem with spell effect design when in every group fight or larger, the enemy literally turns into a collection of bright flashes, and when you literally can not see anything the enemy is doing anymore. GW2 expected you to react to a small graphic on the enemy weapon for power attacks, but at the same time, made it vanish under your own on-hit flashes, so you generally just ate the attack rather than dodged it, because you couldn't see it happen.

    So on that subject, I actually pretty much love the clearer style Wildstar is adopting, it'll make it easier to see what's going on, and what the enemy is doing. Obviously telegraphs will help a great deal, but it is just nicer to be fighting enemies rather than a strobe light :p
  12. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    Completely agree, and I feel your pain on GW2 - I played a thief and trying to monitor which way an enemy was facing when lots of fire and blinding spell effects filled your screen was more than a little difficult.

    To be a bit more specific - I don't want every spell to be that extravagant, or in fact very many at all, but those longer cooldown super-show off spells are always fun to pull off, and even witness when they're a rarity as opposed to the norm.

    I too think the telegraph system is very nicely designed and will lead to some unique and exciting encounters, and it was a genuine pleasure to see the game played close to how we'll have it on release (or open beta).
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    How rare will they be in 40 man content?
  14. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    How much bigger will the content be in 40-man raids so that, contextually, the flashier spells won't have the same dramatic appeal, nor vision-destroying effect?
  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    What? At minimum you are going to have one huge ball of melee for pve, and more likely than not a group of ranged. For Warplots that is going to depend on your personal design, but one would assume you will see similar things at chokepoints, not to mention the pseudo pve raid mob You can choose to plant. Haven't you played Alterac Valley at all?
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  16. Laban

    Laban Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ugh, now that's a big pile of bad memories right there. Alterac Valley was truly a nightmare, and more PvE than PvP, and the fact that it sometimes took half a day just to finish it didn't make it any better.
  17. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    I'm certain there's a point in there, but it does seem a lot like you're focusing on a very small part of my overall message - applying your logic (which I'm not suggesting is false), wouldn't the ground be littered with telegraphs anyway? Blue and red. I'm not suggesting limit breaks or anything quite as catastrophic, just something a cut above different coloured ammunition, without interfering with what will already be a disco ball in choke points.

    And I think you're applying a greatly exaggerated version of my idea to a very specific area of the game. An idea which, as I've stated, isn't required but simply part of a possible wishlist. My wishlist.

    I've no intention in engaging in passive-aggressive responses as that isn't the purpose of this thread. (Although a quick forum check does reveal that you like to operate in such a fashion.)
  18. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    I'm inclined to agree! That said, there are those who enjoy the PvE aspects sometimes found in PvP, I suspect the apt developer would target both groups in different ways.
  19. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm going to go back to one of Scooter's twitter posts (think it was Scooter) where he mentioned people complained that lvling up was not flashy enough and said that that got fixed but also "Be careful what you wish for". Guess we can say the same for this issue as well. :)
    For me I would rather have combat realistic/nice looking abilities across the board than a select few flashy ones, since after some time I will stop paying too much attention to the animations/abilities I do anyway. Also we haven't really seen a lot of skills. At gamescom the abilities were limited to what is on the bar and you couldn't swap them out. Also it was only mid lvl spells so surely there are more to come.

    As for your point about LAS, although I am a tad worried about how a limited set of abilities will affect the game I don't think we will be stuck with one set of abilities + situational abilities. I think it's pretty safe to say that what they showed us so far was sort of pre-set. It's only lvling content, generally you can make anything work there.. Perhaps they will show us some more variety in future streams?
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  20. JackyVee

    JackyVee Cupcake

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    Yeah, I was possibly a little trigger-happy when firing off these (relatively small) concerns, as there still isn't enough information for any of us to justify much at all - it's mostly me postulating. It does get to the point where you don't focus so much on the animation for its aesthetic value as much as its visual cues as to the progress of your ability. It is nice when they look awesome too though!

    Also, awesome profile picture!
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