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Stalker Stealth

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Unseen, Apr 13, 2013.

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Will Stalker have unlimited stealth later on?

  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    How high does your damage need to be if your opponent cannot fight back? If you can't fill your hotbar with damage abilities it helps allay some concern, at least for me, but given an unlimited stealth mechanic, the ability to enter a "partial stealth" state in which you can use abilities as if you were in stealth and a positioning mechanic that boosts your damage perhaps just one or two powerful damage abilities would be enough to be excessive.
  2. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    lolGW2 I was not a fan of GW2 PVP at all which was so so disappointing with how much I enjoy PVP.

    I think PVP is going to be really interesting with every class having a tanky or heals option.

    Heartseeker really had nothing to do with perma stealth though. It needed to be buffed by a lot of other skills to make it potent which would take away a lot of slots for the CC people are talking about.
  3. Marakai

    Marakai New Cupcake

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    Considering how devs are making Wildstart- take good, tested stuff from best MMO last years witch tested, well-known mechanics, I think Stalker will have perma stealth, becasue of 20 sec CD on it. You are stealthed as long as you dont attack, which make sense, sicne you are, well, Stalker/Assassinbtype! Besides limited steatlh is working if CD is short (like in B&S or GW2), but it makes it more dynamic combat. Here I see, Stealth is more tactical, so with such a CD it is obvious for me it would be perma (like in ArcheAge or WoW for example)

    Besides, dont foget we know only about 7 skill for each class, including Stalker. I am sure we will have more perks and skill that will give Staler Stealth or short-stealth for example on dodge, on succsesfull counter, or some skill with Stun/CC will be with short Stealth. Each class, if I rember correctly has about 30 skill? So one steatlh and CC is obviously not only one, and add perks and some sort of passives/skill trees.

    Rember, that each class have to be attractive to players. Warrior wont be attrictive without big Shlashes, smashes, crushes, decapitations and booms, and Spellslinger wouldnt be attractive without shoting, shoting, acrobation shoting and more gunsman spectacular shoting. Same is with Stalkers- class wouldnt be attractive without Stealth, backstabbing, Stealth kills, stealth, stealth, stealth. Thats why you pick each class, no? No sense to make stealth clss no-stealth class :D

    I like that devs are giving each class this feeling that this is good old, cool-archetype type of our favourite classes.
  4. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    The argument seems to be leaving the perma stealth topic now. It is just turning into amount of cc vs dmg.

    Perma stealth gives you the ability to get up on an enemy and use 1 opener. You have to get out of combat to get back into that state (I assume). While in that state you are moving slower than anybody ells that is not being slowed. The vanish leaves you visible giving your opponent plenty of opportunity to break you out again. We do not know much about diminishing returns yet or if there are going to be moves to break CC. I would venture to guess we will see at least 1 of these if not both.

    If a team lets the stalker get out of combat that is on them. Get some DOTs on em or keep an eye on em if he is trying to back off to get out of combat.

    I am failing to see the problem. In open world a stalker is probably not going to be traveling around in stealth at all times because of how slow it is. Same with any large map.
  5. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Ambush, backstab, kidney shot, gouge, sinister strike - that's 5 abilities and I used to routinely 100-0 people using only those in vanilla WoW.
    As I said before - we don't know enough to say yay or nay either way as things like skill cooldowns and time to kill factor so heavily into it.
    If TTK is low then any stealth class will always have a huge advantage simply by virtue of being given the free opener (an advantage only increased by any front loading of damage - ie an ambush like skill).
    The longer the TTK gets the less advantage allowing the first strike will give.

    Off topic a bit but I'm hoping for a longer TTK as I always find it gives much better fights (Gladiator v Chanter duels in Aion around mid level were great fun for me as an example).
  6. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    I have always felt longer TTK makes PvP way more interesting. Games where the person who gets off the burst first wins are just so boring. I like to see counters and strat and not just who got the pre scripted routine out first.

    Wile they are I guess trying to make it feel like vanilla WoW through the large raids. This is years latter and we know they have looked at many MMO and learned what works, what does not, and come up with ideas of how to do things better(at least we are hopping so). I think Rouge in WoW has changed a ton over time and can not do that any more. I do not think a rouge can even get close to 100 -> 0 an equally skilled player through a stun lock. Why would we think this game is going to take a step backward instead of forward on this.

    Perma stealth gives you the ability to get on somebody and get off a free opener. That is it. The rest is about class balancing.

    People do not like it because it takes a little bit of control from them but I think there are going to be plenty of counters put in. It is just going to come down to people learning how to deal with this kind of thing as in every other game. I do not see how it is OP in fact they have even made sure to change things like vanish to make sure that stealth it self can not be used to escape or reset the battle. It is no ware close to the I win button it has been in other games.
  7. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Theoretically you weren't supposed to be able to re-enter stealth while in the middle of a fight in WoW without Vanish, but we found ways to "leave combat" and do it anyway. ;)
  8. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Lol a fellow 'abuse talented gouge' player detected :D
  9. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thank you for posting this.. I wanted perma stealth on my stalker.. We all know melee has a disadvantage to ranged in PvE due to being right in the middle of the kill zone and in PvP if we cannot stealth up to our targets in time for stealth to wear out then we will get kited instantly.. We need perma stealth in order to find a way threw all the attacks going on to get to that healer in the back and put pressure on them.. It's a PvP tactic that needs perma stealth.. Timed stealth may not be enough to help your team.

    And as a stealther why cant I skip content to get to the end?? should be stalkers choice as that is the class we pick. of coarse I love to kill everything and find everything. Puting timer on stealth can sometimes kill the fun of being stealth class. But it looks like we cannot VANISH into perma stealth once in combat. only partial to use skills.. so no worries.. no Take half your HP then vanish and regroup then come back and burn the rest of your HP down tactics.. We will have to use different methods to assassinate other players :p
  10. Yinello

    Yinello Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry for hijacking the topic, but I'm curious if Stalker can be played (mostly) without stealth. Thing is I'd rather be a tank and I'm afraid that stealthing would cause me to lose aggro.
  11. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Should be fine - the suit 'mode' mechanic seems to work similar to the stances/buffs for Assassin tanks in SWTOR or Riftstalkers in Rift. If you aren't familiar with either of those it was effectively a self buff that increased armour/health or defences along with generated threat to put them roughly on par with other tanking classes.
    Also partial camouflage just allows use of stealthed abilities rather than actually causing you to lose agro (in case you found a need to use any of those in a tanking build - maybe the ambush style skill for threat or something).
    I think the devs said there was some other factors to the suit 'modes' but for now that should give you an idea of what to expect (maybe the arkship people are allowed to go into more depth?).
    Yinello likes this.
  12. Marakai

    Marakai New Cupcake

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    Wonder if I will find a way to mix tanky and DPS abilities in PvP... Just thinking if gear will be Full DPS or Full Tank stats with set bonus (to make sure we decide on one) or we will have mroe freedom to mix both roles. It can be really interesting to find balance between DPS and Tanky stats/build in PvP. I like classic glass cannons but I enjoyed highly tanky stats and gear in Blade & Soul with Assassin (in B&S PvP is only with tank gear, since DPS geared players die in one combo).

    Also, I would like to see some skills with good-timed block or counter that makes Stalker partial Stealth. Hope to see rally skill based combat with my Stalker :)
  13. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    Stalker makes me think a lot about the CON in SW:TOR. You can be a Tank or DPS and are a stealth class.

    I found the best rout for PvP was tanky skills with DPS gear. It was pretty beastly and 1 of the hardest to kill setups in the game wile I played. (before the game went down hill) It will probably be my first set up as stalker (assuming I play 1) and I will adjust as I become more experienced.

    Fun to speculate but still do not know for sure what I will play.. Need to see the last 2 classes and work out with my GF what we are going to play as we static in almost every MMO.

    Many of you stopped in the CC thread I had posted trying to get info and opinions on CC for the game. With the break out system and the armor resistance to CC do you all still really think perma stealth is a big deal combine with cc?

    I still am sticking to the opinion perma stealth is fine and with all the stuff put in place it unbalances nothing.
  14. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Is there still a possibility that an imbalance can occur? Of course there is, so yeah, it's still a big deal. :laugh:
  15. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Dirty Repub.....yech. Anyway, you are hitting on the key point, Sins and their Repub versions, were the most ridiculous to kill in TOR, next to their Lightning/Pebble spec AC. Everyone who pvp'd as a Sin would spec him tank and roll in DPS gear or vice versa, nuke people and couldn't be killed unless they were 3v1. Not to mention their ridiculous Sprint ability(50% movement speed), usable while stealthed, their AOE knockback, and all of their tanking abilities. They also had permanent stealth, which meant they could run around in Huttball, in the endzone just waiting for a pass, or run around in VS ganking people at doors/bridges, same thing with the 2 other bgs, I don't remember the names, been ages.

    So, if you are already planning on running around visible until you get close to your target why do you need/want a permanent stealth? One would assume that as you get closer to your target, you develop a plan, hopefully you're running with someone to help distract them, you've picked your point of attack, then you go in for the kill. If they out manuveur you and get away, you just un-stealth and continue to stalk them visbily, because as you said you are already too slow to chase them stealthed.
  16. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    Best part of being a Pub was everybody knew everybody. No cross server Qs so the Pub PvP community was really strong and organized.

    Because it gives you options. If they out maneuver you, you have a choice in trying to see if you can get on them or uncloaking and move forward/away. Maybe you switch targets or maybe you realize it was a bad idea and tactically retreat. If you have a temp stealth and they out maneuver you, you are boned. You are now on CD and out in the open.

    You are moving slow so they have plenty of opportunity to try and knock you out of stealth it is not like perma stealth = you cant get me. It does how ever mean you cant just run around until my stealth comes off.
  17. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never said anything about the stealth being short, why does everyone who is against a timed stealth believe that it will be somehow mystically short? I am not talking about the 10 second stealth that GW2 has, I had in mind a 40 second-1 minute stealth time with a 20 second cooldown. Thus giving you a long enough time to move in for the gank or realize you made a poor decision and get out.

    If you get spotted or need to move out of stealth to run away Stalkers will most likely have access to at least some of both of their sets of abilities, so put a tankie one on your bar. If you plan to spec your action set to straight gank, then yes you will get butt hurt hard when out in the open, which is why you plan. If they notice you as you run up to them and then engage your stealth, you drop to say 50% MS, they are still running at 100%. They don't need to run around waiting for you they just run away. Even with permanent stealth you would need to unstealth and run back at them visibly.

    No one ever alluded...elluded? I always forget. That perma-stealth meant you could not be caught, just that it made it rather one sided. Also, as you've said, and I mentioned, no Stalker in their right mind, at least not the good ones, will run an entire BG in stealth. It is just too slow. Now, in the most recent patch notes that Carbine has released because some twat broke the NDA, they mentioned that sprint and dash worked in stealth and didn't break it. Thus giving you 2 gap closers, I admit I don't know their CDs, and we do not know the status on any of the other Stalker abilities, they could have a Shadow Step-esque move.

    The problem I see with a permanent stealth character, especially one with a tank OS, is that they can just run around solo and gank people without fearing about getting countered because of their tank ability. Now, Wildstar may be different because of the action sets, I can't judge yet. But when I rolled an Op in TOR and would roam to gank I made sure I had one of my friends around to help distract people, or I picked someone off towards the outskirts of the herd because I was squishier that a pillow. Ops/Scounds could be looked at sternly and died. I will also grant that we were entirely front loaded in damage which is why for balancing issues they were that weak. Everything we can tell from reading the patch notes is that Stalkers are not front load heavy, at least from my interpretation of them. So they don't rely as heavily on their opener as other stealth classes do.

    Sorry for the mass wall of text. I just think that a permanent stealth class is something that has been done for so long people believe that it needs to exist in any stealth class. Wildstar is doing some most excellent things, shaking the conventional methods up. Why would it not be possible for them to make a timed stealth something that works?
  18. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is one of my main arguments against permanent stealth (for open world style PvP at least, could apply to any scenario where the stealther is actively avoiding combat ie drawing out an arena match to be annoying).

    For me it removes any consequence for a players actions - I know I used to roam Ilum in SWTOR and freely kill players on my smuggler/Operative/assassin characters with no fear of reprisal as I'd simply kill a target and sneak off.
    In WoW sneaking into opposite faction cities and killing people was also pretty much risk free assuming you knew how to avoid guards and picked targets intelligently.

    I liked Aion's stealth on my ranger a lot - long enough to allow me to sneak up to targets but also had a window of non stealth so I couldn't just ignore enemy faction search parties stirred up by killing targets during rifting or in the abyss. Basically when I picked a fight I had to live with whatever consequences occurred in the time between killing the target and my stealth coming off cooldown so if I made a bad choice I'd pay for it (unlike SWTOR/WoW etc where it's a case of trollollolol vanish /wave unless there's a dedicated stealth reveal class that can catch you with their 'flare' type ability).

    45 minute+ arena matches because it's 2 rogues left and one is sat in afk in a corner somewhere is also not my idea of fun :p Timed stealth removes that aspect.

    Downsides of a reasonable cooldown on stealth tends to be for PvE where you will typically kill mobs faster than the stealth cd (if it's long enough to allow a reasonable window of vulnerability in PvP) so won't get to stealth between every pull (or if you wait for it then it adds downtime which isn't fun). Not sure if it's possible to have a different cooldown on an ability triggered by using it on a PvP target? If it is then that could solve that issue.

    As it is though permanent stealth is pretty much god mode for open world pvp - if you're smart about what/when you engage you should never lose a fight and after you've eliminated your target you can ignore any consequences/retaliation via your permanent stealth.
    Group/Mass PvP or battlegrounds it tends to be less of an advantage but then having timed stealth wouldn't change the dynamic of these fights as much (except maybe for extended flanking manoeuvres). Timed stealth would also stop any 'dragging out' of arena matches.

    /shrug that's just my opinion of course but I feel a timer + decent cooldown on stealth offers more pros than cons. Plus I like the tactical challenge of deciding when to use it properly (but that's likely just me) ie can I make it past these mobs/players before this runs out?.

    Edit: Forgot to mention my pet hate with permanent stealth: Permanent stealth coupled with long duration crowd control usable from stealth (and not breaking stealth) - or griefer's heaven :p Timed stealth allows you to find and kill those annoying tallywhackers!
  19. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hahahahahaha, I did that constantly. Was a lot of fun while questing to sneak off and gank a repub or 2 inbetween. But like you said, it was way too easy. It was easier on a Sin too, because they could go 2v1 without a care and just switch to Dark Charge(tank mode).
  20. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    You forgot Cluster bomb!

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