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Tagging Mobs: First Come First Server, or Does Everyone Get A Piece of the Action?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Zapp Brannigan, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    As relationship experts often say, don't "test" your love for your significant other. As the police often say, don't "tempt" the potential criminals. People get influenced, a LOT, throw a bunch of people in a primitive world and within a few month 80% of them will have no trouble cutting down people for food. The design of the game will influence the mindset of the people, it's not just a one-way interaction. If the game seems to encourage unfriendly play, people will catch on and make the best out of it. Shouldn't be a surprise, I mean, we're at the top of the food chain for a reason --- we adapt well.

    In other words, there's no "finding out about a person". Well, yes there is, through this system you can probably notice the top 10% of people that you will like. But what about the 90%? You say they have flawed personality, I say they don't have to. Those same people in a open tagging system might be perfectly fine, they'll cooperate, and by doing so repeatedly gradually become more community minded and there will be very little problem later on. It's hard to be mean in an environment where everyone is helpful and you're not being denied anything. And if you're talking about "capability", I really wish you're not testing human nature, I mean even Hollywood knows that.

    There are two factions to this game. It's easy to find out more about a person, if that's what you like. Whether if this person is aggressive, stubborn, truly wise, all can be found by going into world PvP with him. If he camps enemy newbies, that means something. If he gets angry often, that means something. If he goes off and get pew pew kills instead of trying to capture a point, that means something. I'm just saying we don't need to introduce bitterness everywhere by setting up competition amongst supposed allies.
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  2. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Seeing as they're already adopting a bunch of GW2 features (interrupt armor), which is a smart idea, I'm sure this will follow suit.

    Although I would much prefer something more like Anarchy Online....whoever does the most damage gets the loot. Would be great for open world bosses and multiple groups.
  3. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is very true.

    In a world with no repercussions for actions as tagging a mob first...why wouldn't you? This "reputation" you speak of means nothing in any online game that's successful as there's enough people that you'll forget soon enough, on the other side...if it is meaningful and you will remember that person because there's not that many people playing then it'll shut it's doors soon enough not to matter as well.
  4. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's what a group is for, and things exclusively available for groups: dungeons, particular explorations, jumping puzzles, battle grounds, things like that. In open world, you'll be a stranger no matter what --- In a closed tag system, if I needed to finish a daily grind and there are other people there, I invite them all to a group, put on free loot, and carry on killing, leaving the group after I'm done... It's really no different.

    What IS different though, as I found out in Tera after playing GW2 for months --- I saw a player having trouble kiting a mob, I go over there and try to help, and the player views my good intentions as hostility. I thought I was trying to save his life, he thought I was trying to steal his mob when he's having trouble. Another example: I was soloing a skill challenge 10 levels above my level in GW2, and it's looking like I might not live past the next 5 seconds, suddenly a water field appears under my feet followed by a pet rushing in --- those are wonderful feelings. I really did enjoy those moments. You don't have to say much to each other, you feel the friendly atmosphere and it makes the sky a bit more clear.

    So I don't mind if they tweak the tagging system a bit, maybe it can be contribution based (the person who does higher damage/healing gets the most reward), maybe it just gives the helper some coins. As long as it doesn't make me hesitate when I see a player in trouble, because it really makes me feel horrible.
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  5. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    You just made an argument for the closed tagging system actually prompting you to talk to people out in the open world. Many people ask before inviting it's considered polite or at least say "hey" and "bye" it's not much but more social interaction than I had most time in GW2.

    As for your whole second paragraph if the guy was kiting the mob then he's already tagged it and what you do is really irrelevant so if you helped him out it wouldn't be stealing anyway. The same thing goes for the skill challenge, you would have already hit the mob if you had begun so they can help you freely anyway.
  6. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    A lot of tagging system now scales with the damage you do, and in the case of Tera, sometimes neither party gets credit when two people hit on the same mob. And no there's no interaction in my example, I right click on a person and "invite", do that whenever I see a person in an area, go on killing, and leave the group when I'm done (the leader gets passed to another player so they can keep this group going for dailies). Which is fine for me, I don't mind this kind of system, people know why I'm doing what I'm doing so no words are needed, we're already on an agreement. That's not where I have concerns at, and I really don't think either system is that much different from each other in this perspective.

    And like I said, if they can fix my concerns by using a whatever tagging system, I'm all up for it. As soon as we're facing the problem where people start avoiding each other, for whatever reason (and this definitely happens lots in early days WoW), that's going to change the community atmosphere.
  7. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I kind of disagree with that somewhat. We should not force people to talk with others, we should just let it happen. If someone does not want to talk to other much, it does not really matter if there is open or closed tagging, he still won't be talking to other people much. Likewise, if we have a social person, he'll be talking regardless of the tagging system.

    I solo quite a bit, and I have to say I had more social interaction with total strangers in GW2 than I had in WoW. After getting some people pissed at me for killing their mobs in WoW, or tagging a quest mob, I just stopped getting close to people in general. GW2, sure, there was not a lot of conversation, but I got a few "thanks, they were about to kill me", or just a "thanks" when helping people with champions, or when they were surrounded. At least I never received a negative comment. Did any of the systems inspire me to party more? nope, I'm still a soloer when leveling. In that case, I prefer the open system, as it is more friendly for soloers. Partiers, they'll still party regardless of the system.

    Anyway, I do not think we should force people to party, or to be more social. Let them be natural. This is a positive thing that they have to find themselves. But we should implement systems where people cannot be mean to one another. That is a negative thing that we should try to avoid.
  8. Rush

    Rush Cupcake

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    At first having open tagging seems great. When everyone is at the same level and running through the same <REDACTED>, it's nice. It comes in handy, saves you from actually having to party with anyone, and prevents mishaps caused over killstealing.

    But it really is a social interaction killer. Where is the point of partying if you can just run up to some mob some guy is fighting, tag it for credit, then let him finish it off? I find that <REDACTED> more annoying than competing with someone for credit over a kill.

    In my experience from WoW, people usually stick to certain areas. One guy over on the left side, one guy on the right side, and you just kill what spawns until you have it. Playing in GW2 now, with my super powerful guardian that is geared better than almost anyone else around me, it grind my got damn gears when some noob comes up and does jack<REDACTED> for damage on the mob I am fighting, just so he can get credit for fighting it. That kind of <REDACTED> is bull<REDACTED>.

    When I am going solo, I am not out there to help a lower tiered player. I have enough time dedicated to guildies for that.

    Leave it as a closed tagging system, and if you and a few guys are in the same area it will actually prompt you to form a party with them.
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  9. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I was referencing his comment about people being strangers no matter what, now he might not whisper a person first but others might so in that sense it seemed like a potential plus for the closed tagging system.

    I'm not trying to force anyone to group, I just don't think there is any problem with closed tagging. I very rarely have issues with people in WoW with tagging and I have been playing since Vanilla. I suspect the same is true for most people but the odd bad experience people have sours them to the whole thing. It just seems like a simple system like closed tagging that works fine 99% of the time is better than some convoluted, probably opaque system where rewards are distributed based on percentage of damage, but oh wait what about healers how do they get a decent reward for this type thing we had in GW2.
  10. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I agree there are some pluses to closed tagging (some competition, some incentive to grouping), but I believe the cons are much more as well. People will actually avoid other players when there is a closed tagging system.

    Personal experience, in WoW. If I see another player getting beaten up, or chased by an elite, I would probably just let him pass by, even if he gets killed. The mob is already tagged, and I get nothing for it, and I may even get insulted if I try to help. So tough luck. If I see a mage running around with 3 mobs behind him, I have no idea if he's getting killed, or he's getting mobs to AoE down, so I will not assist him. The mobs are tagged, I get nothing for it, and may even get insulted if he was grouping them for AoE.

    So in general, at least for me, a closed tagging system actually pushes me to avoid other players. Which is not the case with an open tagging system. In the same cases as before, I would probably help both players in the open tagging system, and he loses nothing, and I lose nothing (and even get xp).

    Even another of the posters said something curious "on the closed tagging, I just go here, let the other player go there, and not bother each other, and it's fine!". Well, you see, it is not fine if an MMO has mechanics that promote moving away from other players. It may promote people to party somewhat (very slightly in my opinion), but it certainly pushes people away from each other a lot more. And you can still party with open tag systems. Heck, they could even add party bonuses to open tag, so it's even better to party.

    Anyway, that is my experience. Closed tagging tends to push people away from each other more then pushing then together. At least from what I've experienced.
  11. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    I get what you were trying to say and like I was saying, if they can make things work with closed tagging, if they can manage to get the community atmosphere up, I'm all for it. Does closed tagging "work"? Yes it does, WoW's success is an example. Is it "working well enough"? Maybe, if every MMO stayed like that people won't start thinking otherwise. But the almost universal critical approval on the open tagging system of GW2 introduces a powerful competitor, and now simply "work" is not enough for a lot of people. We want better.

    This is my personal experience, but once you go open-tag, you can't go back. :p At the time I never felt it, but now after experiencing what tagging COULD BE, traditional closed tagging (note, traditional. Again if you can make it closed tagging AND community friendly then I'm all for it) just feels so unfriendly, and not intuitive enough. Help from others should be a GOOD thing is all I'm saying.
  12. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    You can help someone though regardless of its a closed or open system. If a player 'thinks' you're coming over to steal his kill, it won't take him long to realize you're actually coming to help.
  13. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't think the open tag system is as great as you give it credit for. Certainly there are some people who like not having to deal with kill stealing and think it makes people not avoid others but it's fraught with problems. Since beta GW2 has struggled through many patches of it's loot system trying to get it to work properly. There has been patches to help account for problems it had with DoTs, Pets, Healing, loot make up and consistency. Even as recently as last month there was a 31 page post (and that is a lot considering the amount of posts on a page) on their forums about loot issues here.

    The sad fact is it's a system that complicates things greatly to attempt to solve a small problem and ends up creating larger ones. I'm not saying closed loot can't be improved or that we shouldn't try to innovate but I don't think GW2 open tagging is a model to look to as it's broken and always has been.
  14. aiuradun

    aiuradun Cupcake-About-Town

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    Think most will agree closed tagging is a thing of the past, but it does do some things well (hopefully Wildstar will find great ways to fill those holes)

    1: Changes pacing - from a none stop quest grind to a tab-target / wait for this semi boss mob to spawn that everyone is waiting for.- some ppl might only see this as a minus but diversity in play is kind of important even stuff that might seem to hinder progress can be healthy (in the right amount!)

    2: Create interaction between players - If everyone does it 1 at a time it will take longer lets group up, once grouped up you usually say hi, and hi can lead to hey i also have this quest you have lets go do it, ahh cool you are an explore let’s do this thing since I can't do that by myself (that kind of thing)

    3: Secure Competitive guild vs guild targeting of world bosses / other events - And not just everyone zerging the boss (making it hard to balance as well)

    At least those are my thoughts playing the devil’s advocate a little bit, since I would also prefer the open targeting, but just because i prefer it I still see some value in the old system.
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  15. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Keep world bosses close tagged - most quest bosses open tag - and other stuff can fall in between. Id actually be all for any mobs that a quest actively has you killing or hunting , becomes open tag to anyone who has that quest.
  16. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think this is the best compromise. Have both systems in place. Regular and quest mobs as open, and rare spawns, world bosses as closed. So we still have some competition in some places, but for general gameplay, we have the more friendly/cooperative system.
  17. Xryus

    Xryus Cupcake

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    A couple people in the thread have mentioned grouping in COH and how common it was. COH was my first MMO and I played it even while playing WoW for many years. It was almost standard practice upon leaving the tutorial zone to start looking for a group. The main reason was in my opinion the amount of XP you gained in a group was far greater then soloing. I did my fair share of soloing in that game, but it was no WoW.

    IMHO it was harder then classic WoW as far as leveling goes. There were way fewer single mobs. Most were groups of 3 and 1 or more could be a Lieutenant (kinda like an elite in WoW ). There was also a mechanic that adjusted the spawns based on the level of the player that killed them to a degree of course. It was not uncommon to run into a pack of +3 or +4 mobs along side mobs your level.

    My main point is we grouped to level faster. In games like WoW you lose 50% of your XP if your in a group. You want people to group make the content harder, but not impossible to solo and make it faster in a group and people may do what we did in COH. I'm not even going to get into the fact that we could level people in a group while being in a totally different zone and killing mobs at that zones level!

    It's been a very long time since I played COX so please forgive any errors.
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  18. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I’ve read this theme throughout this thread, and it boggles my mind. W* is a dual faction game, just as WoW is. If you want to be competitive with other players then you should be doing the fricken PvP; not some run to tag a Boss MOB before others in your faction does so. Now maybe I’m biased because I never got a charge from running around a track, but definitely got a charge from flattening the guy with the ball.
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  19. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    This discussion is part of a larger narrative that has yet to be expounded upon. MMOs designers have steadily decreased the ways in which players can interact with one another, "open tagging" is another way in which that is acheived. Specifically, ways to socialize have been reduced to ensure that no matter what action you may take it is a positive for another player. I'm of the opinion that limiting ways to interact with the world and with players is a mostly negative thing to when designing an MMO.
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  20. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I do not quite see how open tagging reduces player interaction, and closed tagging increases it. With open tagging you may try to help another player, with close tagging, you'll probably avoid another player if he already tagged the mobs around him.

    Does it help grouping? no, it does not. People group if they want to group, and will not group if they do not want to group. Simple as that.

    If you wanted to force partying, then you make all regular mobs really hard, that it takes 3-4 players to take down. Then you will have forced grouping. Will that increase player interaction and socialization? Probably not much. Quiet players will still be quiet, talkative players will still be talkative. It would just make the game a pain for the more solo oriented players.

    Closed tagging is the one that enforces negative interaction between players in my opinion, not a positive one. Kill stealing, mob hoarding, tagging and leading mobs to a group of players. All those are negative and possible with closed tagging. Not so much with open tagging.
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