1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Tagging Mobs: First Come First Server, or Does Everyone Get A Piece of the Action?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Zapp Brannigan, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    629
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    I think Guild Wars 2 has been out long enough to demonstrate that it has a negative effect on team play. In fact, no one cares about the "team" aspect at all because they don't need to. Admittedly, this isn't the only thing in GW2 that contributes to that, but it's a big one.

    There's a nice dynamic that can be had when small groups work together in a big world, and open-tagging / non-grouping seems to diminish that.
  2. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    350
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sudbury, Ontario
    Ah but closed tagging does encourage grouping since it's the only way to share loot. In an open tag system you wouldn't have to bother everyone would just zerg it without speaking and get their loot, but with closed looting you have to form a party for group quests or any other reason you'd like to share loot.

    As for helping people I think most decent people whether they get a loot drop or not will try to help someone if they see they are getting mobbed, it's the nice thing to do. If you really want to encourage it throw a little bit of XP on to mobs tagged by others to mitigate that if you really think it's needed. You can train mobs onto people with either system the real only downside I see is "kill stealing" and yeah whatever it sucks but I don't think it's as prevalent as people make it out to be. Certainly not bad enough to outweigh all the inherent problems and complications that come with a more complex open tagging system.
  3. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    I still do not understand this part. I played WoW for 6 years, and may have been asked to party 2-3 times to kill some champion mob for a quest. I played GW2 as well since it launched, and was never asked to party, but was asked for help killing tough opponents as well. The only difference, is that in one we had to make a party, the other, no party. The interaction was exactly the same though, and actually more often in GW2.

    However, in WoW, I did find myself avoiding other players when they were farming. Why? because there are less mobs for him. and for me. Sure, I could have partied with him, but I was not interested, and probably they were not interested either because they never approached me. Champions killing another player? Let the champion kill him. He tagged the mob, his mob. Player pulled 20 mobs to where I am? Stay nice and still so I do not aggro the mobs. They are tagged anyway, I'm not going to kill the mobs for him. Those are all negative interactions.

    GW2 is not perfect of course, but the open tagging is a lot more friendly, and dies help with player interaction. I say interaction, because helping another player is interaction. It may not be socialization, but is is interaction nonetheless. Player mobbed by 5 mobs? Help him out, none of us lose anything. Player tackling a champion? Help him out, none of us lose anything. Player pulled 10 mobs to me? Eh, why not, try to take them out, I still get xp and loot from it.

    So I would like someone to point out exactly how closed tagging improves player interaction over open tagging. I really do not see how. Keep in mind that social players will be social regardless of game rules, and soloers will still be soloers.
    Yinello likes this.
  4. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    That's another problem actually. Group with another player, and maybe see an epic drop so we have to roll for it? and lose it? while it could be mine if I just soloed? No thanks. Loot contention is another big problem there. And actually, you get less loot. In round robin at least, you loot once every 2 mobs if you are with another person. Sure you will faster, but you get less loot. Open system, everyone gets their personal loot regardless if you are in a party or not. My loot is not affected, and may not be taken either.

    Kill stealing is relevant when leveling and questing. Oh gosh, specially when a new expansion comes out. The ones where you had to kill X mob for the quest, you get 20 mages spamming AoEs on the spawn point so they can get the mob. Even partying there helps somewhat, but you still have to spam to "steal" the mob from the rest, before it is "stolen" from you. And that is a real fact of things that happen. I know because I was there, and I know because I was "forced" to take the same measures to have quests done. And that is not positive at all. I agree, it does not happen all the time, but when it happens, it only makes the game experience negative, and not positive.

    I agree open tagging system is not perfect either, but closed tagging is not even close to perfect, and does generate negative interaction between players. I definitely think we need both. Open for regular mobs, and quest mobs, and closed for rares and world raid bosses. There is no reason why we need to have one only.
    DrShemp likes this.
  5. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    43
    If you've ever tried to kill a world boss on a PvP server you know that those two scenarios are not mutually exclusive. :D
    Lethality likes this.
  6. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    629
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    It's the "party" construct that is at the heart of the reasoning for me. Whatever features, mechanics or incentives that can foster the "party" are a good thing! For example, class synergies while in a group. That's sort of the unique selling proposition of the genre, so why not foster it? If provides unique gameplay opportunities that are lost on a solo player. I appreciate that some players like to play alone, but there's no denying there are more layers of gameplay in a group.

    And class synergy or socialization isn't the only reason of course. The bigger issue with open tagging is it trivializes and minimizes the world. If 10 people kill the same rat, and are all rewarded the same XP, the same coin and the same chance at item loot, that is a vastly different "faucet" leaking things into the economy.

    Ah! But there are contradicting intentions there. Are you worried you're taking something away from the other player by helping? (Which I have yet to actually play a game that does this.) Or are you worried you won't get rewarded for helping?

    It's ok (in fact, desired) for the game designers to tilt systems in the direction they intended the game to be played. ArenaNet felt they wanted to minimize the idea of grouping. I don't get the sense that's what Carbine wants... in fact, I think it's the opposite, what with the return of 40 man raids and whatnot. Different games for different players.

    Closed tagging, no matter how small, contributes to the idea of "the group" as the unit, not the player, and that's the recipe for a good MMO, IMO! :)
  7. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Pac North Wet
    And CoHV was out long enough to demonstrate that open tagging does not inherently have a negative effect on team play.

    It had a robust and easy grouping mechanic, and it had a robust grouping community, despite it also being a very solo friendly MMO (Once you make it through the learning curve.). It had open world events that would pull characters of all levels and classes to the zone; who would then join up in multiple groups, and because the group mechanics made it easy to form groups, these groups would consist of all levels and classes. Was it a zerg? Hells yeah (And as far as I care they were a blast.), but your group within the zerg could still have co-optive play. Also these events would scale up to the number of players. This did not just mean more numbers (Minions, Lieutenants, Bosses), but also higher level bosses would pop if you had the numbers, and when that happened a straight zerg mentality was not going to cut it.

    Something to note, that because of the group mechanics, groups formed at these events would often go on to do various missions in the zone.
  8. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    Good points there, I guess it's just a different point of view in my case. I would like people to party because they want to party, because it provides a positive experience. Not party to avoid the negative side effects of soloing with a closed tagging system. Those are quite difference as well. Do something because I get something good, not do something to avoid something bad. Class synergies also work even if not in a party. I can buff others, heal others, a tank can pull mobs even if not in a party, etc. All those synergies are not party only abilities.

    I still do not see a problem with 10 players killing the same rat, and all getting loot. It would actually be a positive force for them to play together, and kill together (group/party bonus?). That is a good thing. Even if they do not party together, they still play together, which is what we want in an MMO. People playing together. The economy can be controlled in other ways, and 10 people killing 1 rat is no different than 1 player farming 10 rats because he has lots of time... End result, same money and loot generated, and the economy has to deal with both cases anyway.

    Actually, I'm worried about taking from the other player. And it happened in WoW at least. If you "helped" another player kill a mob they were fighting, then they actually get less xp for it, even if the player helping gets none. Don't ask me the reason behind this, I have no idea, but that's how it works. So it's actually negative if you "help" another player to kill a mob, because they lose some xp. That's where the negative response from other players come in as well.

    I still do not think Arenanet was trying to reduce the idea of grouping. There are lots of things to promote helping other people, and that leads to groups. It does not mean you have to party, but just because you make a party with someone, does not mean you are automatically socializing. Those are 2 different things. I can party with you all night, and help with quests, and still not chat much, or get to know you much. You may force people to party, but you cannot force them to socialize. And there is no need for it either.

    I do not disagree with your points for closed tagging. I understand there are some positives to it as well, and open tagging has some negatives. That's why we need both. There are cases where one is better than the other (quest mobs should be open for example, and rare mobs / raid bosses should be closed to avoid zerging). I just hope Carbine is willing to give it some thought, and try out the different options, and avoid extremes. There is not one system that fits all cases, and I hope Carbine can look into that, and provide the best system in each case that will bring the best gameplay experience.
  9. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Pac North Wet
    This sounds like a lot of fun, but also got me to thinking.

    How would XP and loot work for this scenerio in a closed tag system?
    I.e I’m in combat with a MOB and you jump me. I’m lucky enough to have an agro loss ability, and smart enough to use it, and I dump the MOB onto you. You take out the MOB and me, or I cut and run.

    Do you get the XP and loot from the MOB?
    Do I have to be dead for you to get the XP and loot?
    Or is it like EQ was; where if you were to assist another player and agro the MOB and they were to cut and run, you would have the chance of death, for no benefit.
  10. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    350
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sudbury, Ontario
    Actually in your first example if you assume all things being equal those 10 people would be able to kill much more than one rat in the time it takes one person to kill 10 rats, the order of magnitude of the loot received increases each time a rat is killed. In a closed system the loot is easier to control it's the same amount of loot whether those 10 people kill 10 rats or 1 person kills 10, now those 10 people could probably kill more than 10 in that time frame but the difference is closer and they are limited by the spawns as well.

    As far as helping people in WoW you didn't hurt them at all unless you drastically outleveled the content (and this was a system to put in to curb powerleveling, not hurt player interaction) This is how it works:


    I don't think anyone is going to complain about 5-10XP here and there if you saved their life and saved them a walk back to their corpse or res sickness.
  11. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    43
    In the games I've played with open-world PvP, world bosses and a closed tagging system... killing you after you've engaged a boss would be the first step. I'd then have to disengage the boss, letting it reset so that my group and I can engage it and tag it for ourselves. If you manage to aggro-dump and stay alive not only do I have to disengage the boss but I probably have to do so with you attacking me. The only people who get loot/XP are the ones it's tagged for, and that actually leads to a point I don't think I've seen brought up in this thread.

    Often when groups have engaged and disengaged a boss with a closed tagging system it breaks that system. It's always seemed like the buggier way to assign rewards, often leading to neither group receiving anything if and when they manage to down the big baddie instead of their competition. Is this an inherent flaw in closed tagging systems, its propensity to bug out and leave players unsatisfied, or just something to worry about if the devs aren't up to bug squashing?
  12. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    350
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sudbury, Ontario
    I can't speak to all games using a close tagging system but in 7 years of playing I don't think I can think of enough instances of something like this happening to have to use more than one hand in counting (excluding betas of course).
  13. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I'd like WoW/SWTOR kind. It was like a honeymoon with GW2 system of open tagging: fun and sexy at first, but eventually it had to end and reveal all those not so sexy compromises they had to install to make it work.
  14. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    43
    What kind of compromises?
  15. Ender

    Ender Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    379
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I prefer an open tagging system to be honest. I understand the idea that grouping is good, but the few times in games like WoW with a closed tagging system, I've asked people to group for specific quests, it has almost never resulted in any kind of meaningful interaction beyond "Are you done? Great, me too" /leave group.

    On the other hand, I don't think I can count the number of times I've avoided an area, or ended up rushing around, semi-annoyed at what ever other people are in the area, because there just isn't enough mobs for all of us. It's a type of competition that I honestly don't care much for.
    I'm not gonna say that GW2 necessarily did it right in my opinion, but I did like what they said about "never being sad to see another player". I prefer being able to hit a mob if I run by someone who seem to be in trouble, without having them yelling at me for stealing their loot/exp. Sure, we might not talk about it, I might never get a thank you (and honestly, I don't really expect so either), but at least it's a neutral experience, rather than a negative one.

    However, this is all coming from someone who's almost always playing with someone else. It's rarely I run around on my own, I'm mostly playing with Patrician, so it might be a completely different deal if you're on your own.
  16. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    I've been playing Firefall recently and it's system is pretty much you can go up and help anyone anywhere and you both get a portion of the rewards.

    People don't seem to like this system in traditional MMOs but when you think about it if you have 2 people killing the same thing then it's going to be 1/2 as hard, why not have the rewards split?

    The only problem occurs when people exploit the system, which with Wildstar's combat is already more difficult that traditional MMOs.
  17. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Like a damage/hit requirement to get loot. You (not your party) have to dish out a certain amount of hits and/or damage to be eligible for loot and event participation. During legendary farming I was running plinx chain, which was best way to farm karma, and it was a stressful zerg-fest. Every single person were looking to land two-three hits, and mobs were ripped to shreds second after they spawned.

    Same thing happening around Maw nowadays - a once great and mighty boss, who was fun and meaningful during beta, gets wrecked before people doing pre-event come to his spawn point. And there are people even standing right next to him that won't get any loot just cause gimped zerkers obliterate him.

    And don't pretend that no mob tagging and no gathering node race means better community. It looks more like disfunctional family, where everyone is happy and try their best to not have an argument between each other. Sucks all drama out of MMO genre.
  18. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    629
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Well, those aren't really "synergies", they are abilities. I'm talking about things like Heroism (taking a WoW example) that affects only your group. Or the hunter's Trueshot Aura. These would be overpowered if they applied to "every player in 500 yards" and would lose any of their strategic value as well, if nothing else through lack of player communication. I've just never felt as alone in an MMO as I did in Guild Wars 2. I do not want WildStar to feel like that.

    My experience though is that people are in fact not playing together. They're playing alone, and other players happen to be there... thats the big and noticeable difference! The satisfaction derived from those two things is vastly different, and why we see such a divide on this topic.

    It's hugely different than one player killing 10 rats in terms of economic balance! In X time, Y money has been injected into the economy. X doesn't change. Y changes drastically. That's the most basic way to explain the difference, I think.

    That is actually not true. You get the full amount of XP from a mob you tag regardless of how many other players help you kill it. The only time that isn't true is when it's a high-level player. This is to prevent the exploit of a low-level players running around tagging things and the high level player finishing them off. I'm assuming any game with closed tagging would behave in a similar way.

    That's precisely what they've done though. Everything from the mechanics to the synergies to the UI tend to support the idea that they wanted to downplay the group strucutre.

    This circles back to my idea of the sanctity of the "group" as a unit, not the "player." The definition of "teamwork" vs. "cooperation" is subtle, but important, and I want MMOs to be about teamwork!

    Much agreed!
  19. Yinello

    Yinello Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    145
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Netherlands
    The idea that closed tagging will make people socialize is absolute bollocks. All I ever seen it do was make people group up because they were scared someone would tag the mob first and the rest would wait for another 10 minutes. Some would say hi and others wouldn't say anything. Then after it's dead, everyone instantly leaves. OR for some superduper fun moments, a passerby comes along and tags it before we do and it's free swearing for the party chat.

    It's not like open tagging promotes socializing but at least it doesn't promote hostility. If people want to make friends, they'll often do so in dungeons or other areas where you need to group up for a long time. Short time groups lead to nowhere. Plus I think it's amazingly fun to see a mass group of what, 40 to 50 people attack a champion and help each other out without asking.

    EDIT: I do like the idea of open tagging for most mobs like normal and quest mobs and parties for special mobs.
  20. Hal

    Hal New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I'm not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but (and I haven't played it for a long time so I might be completely wrong) Rift had a system where you voluntarily clicked to group up with people who were in close proximity of you fighting a rift. It's not ideal but would offer an easier way for players to group up and tag mobs in a closed system.

    Frankly, I've found open tagging much more fun than closed. A closed system often, at least in my experience resulted in a more selfish gaming experience.

Share This Page