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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    We who have played mmos since the dawn of ti..mmos (no wow was not the first mmo) are familiar with the "OP" class that always, no exclusions, gets nerfed first.

    You guess it? thats right, the Assassin/Thief/Asstaber/Stalker.

    It would be nice, if for once, there were a company that didnt listen to the complaints from the men and women running around in cloth dresses for once.

    In mmos after mmo, there have been a massive outcry against the poor assassins and their brethrens, right from the start, when most people are running around in their white/green armor (usually the crappy stuff) thinking its the top of the line gear.
    And they get nerfed way to much so once people start gearing up and learn their classes, said assassins fall behind, and it takes months or years for the developers to do anything about it.

    For some reason, ranged classes also seem to think their cloth armor is the same as platemail, and the staff in their hands are a combined 360degree shield and 2h melee weapon of mass descruction.

    DPS classes are usually the easiest ones to learn, making the very powerful in early game. Players usually have an easier time learning how to use them, not to perfection but decently, then lets say healer.

    One got to consider, should a clothwearing staffuser go toe to toe in melee range against a very squishy class specialized in fast damage before they get killed themselves, or is it said clothweares fault for letting the near and positioning themselves away from their teammates in the first place?

    We all know its going to happen once again, it always does, but it would be nice if one developer does something different.
  2. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nerfs on stealth classes are generally needed, I'll use a somewhat recent example here. Guild wars 2 thief could literally 2 hit you before you even knew they were there, people cried out for nerfs and they kind of dribbled in.

    Then the thieves themselves got up in arms with complaints that they were now underpowered, despite them still having the ability to dispatch most people within a couple of hits, often without even being seen.

    Someone being cloth shouldn't be able to go toe to toe in melee with a stealth assassin no. But they should have equal chance to do stuff about them as anyone else. Being a cloth class doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to kill stealthers, maybe have a difficult time with them, but not have them stand over you with no skill involved.
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  3. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    There's a reason that stealth/assassin classes get hit with the nerf bat first: stealth. No that I've seen has done stealth "perfectly." The closest I've seen has been Shadowbane and Guild Wars 2, and they both handle it very differently.

    Shadowbane's variable stealth level based on skill level worked for what the game was. If a Scout had 135% stealth and 135% running, you wouldn't likely find him. However, if you were tracking a rogue based Barbarian who only had 95% stealth, you had a considerably higher likelihood of him popping up when he got near. It was an open world PvP game where the stealth classes didn't have to be nerfed because the lethality of the combat was quite low. One or two shotting someone as a stealther required the player to exploit some really weird glitches in the combat system, like backstabbing someone with a pole-arm.

    In GW2, the short term nature of stealth gives the Thief class the feeling of a trickster/assassin allowing the player to have a really active combat experience without making the player invincible until they choose to attack. Sure, there are/were bugs and glitches that allowed for longer stealth, and if done correctly I believe you can stay stealthed for upwards of 30+ seconds still, but that requires using just about every stealth skill available to the class. From this perspective, the only nerfing that really has needed to be done to the Thief has been damage reductions to abilities which were allowing Thieves to root and one shot players, and adjustments to stealth stacking and bugs. There were also graphics loading issues related WvWvW that allowed Thieves to come out of stealth and not be seen. The core play-style of the thief didn't need to be adjusted.

    When you look at other games with strong stealth classes that have been changed massively, you really only need to look at WoW as an example of how it usually goes.

    1) Stealth class is given permanent stealth, burst damage and crowd control
    2) Stealth class dominates heavily in PvP environments
    3) Stealth classes control and burst are slowly eroded over time to bring them in line with other classes in PvP.
    4) Players of Stealth class whine

    This same exact problem happens with ranged DPS classes. Designers have to give these classes the appropriate tools to survive in PvE environments, what this ends up being is ranged DPS classes are easier to play because players exploit the game's AI and mechanics.

    Wild Star is putting a lot of effort into skill-shots being a core part of their combat, so this is unlikely to be a problem with ranged classes, however stealth classes, if there is permanent stealth, could still be a lingering issue.

    (Edited to add a few things to my post about Thieves in GW2 and add a missing word.)
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, I think one thing that Carbine's done will help to balance out stealth classes greatly and that is...


    ...


    ...telegraphs. Yeah, so being able to toss out some abilities which will show stealthies at a moment's notice instead of tossing out AoE's and hoping they step in it makes it much more likely a stealth class will be revealed "by accident" when they're attacking normally.

    I also think the stealth will just buff abilities instead of allowing certain abilities that weren't allowed before. Sure this makes the initial burst bigger for the Stalker, but it doesn't mean you have an ability which hits 2.5 times harder than all your other abilities and eventually gets a 60-100% crit rate.

    Additionally, they made stealth more of an active buff during combat, so I think this means you're semi-stealthed and get a bonus to your abilities as if you were in stealth. But really if/when/how hard they get hit by the nerf bat will come down to this implementation really. But as it stands it looks like Stalker's gonna be pretty bursty, but in a more reliable way, instead of the normal burst at start and hope and pray for the combo points to align so you can burst when your enemy's almost dead.
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  5. Ahkronn

    Ahkronn Cupcake

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    The overpowered class is, was and will always be the one played by "that" skilled player.

    I should word this better and pretend it's a Buddha quote or something from the Art of War.
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  6. binzer

    binzer Cupcake

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    What I always find interesting about the "rogue" situation is that 99% of the time people only ever talk about what happens when a rogue ganks someone from stealth. No one ever seems to discuss team fights, or raid viability, or what happens when a rogue gets caught by some fluke aoe, or how easily a rogue can escape a bad situation.

    In my mind, rogues are sort of like assassins in games like League of Legends. If they catch someone out, they will delete that person from the map in seconds, but assassins aren't played that often by pros because they have so many other weaknesses. As far as I can tell, stalkers in Wildstar don't have a vanish ability. That means they're just going to have one chance where they're stronger than the enemy. After that, it's probably not going to go nearly as well. Assassins are great if they find a lone target, but in a team fight, they're lucky to kill someone before they die. If they try to escape it usually doesn't go well, especially if trying to escape from someone who is ranged.

    There's no denying that it's extremely frustrating to die before you can do anything, but historically at least, rogues have been balanced around the fact that ganking is what they do. I've never played a rogue myself, but I'm married to someone who has played them pretty extensively, and I only ever got over my "that's not fair" frustrations by actually forcing myself to consider all the stuff he sucked at and couldn't do. I tend to play tankier characters, and I was always able to do pretty much whatever I wanted in pvp. He was always stuck lurking on the fringes and hoping to spot a possible kill or an objective to sneak. Sneaking and ganking are a lot of fun, but there's also something to be said for survivability, or AoE damage, or the ability to snipe someone from a distance. The issue with rogues is that their strength is the most annoying to be a victim of (but annoying doesn't always mean OP).
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  7. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ahkronn, I think his original intent was to point out the buff/nerf cycle that is aimed almost directly at stealth classes in MMO's, and then he follows it up by noting that ranged DPS classes follow a very similar pattern.
    You are correct, unless there is a major imbalance, the skilled player is the "OP Class."

    Binzer, you have a valid point on how assassin style characters should play, but you're looking at it inside a closed environment. LoL/DOTA style games are a very controlled environment within which these mechanics operate. Stealth mechanics and crowd control, as opposed to burst dps, provide players with the most powerful tools in PvP combat, namely the ability to choose when and where the battle occurs and the ability to interrupt the plans of your opponent.

    Looking at League, take Evelynn as an example. She had permanent stealth and a hard CC, and was subsequently nerfed so hard that she wasn't played for over a year until she was revamped. The reason behind this was sheer power this provided the character. She chose where to engage, when to engage and who to engage, unlike other characters with hard CC, such as Blitz, Alistair, and Nautilus, there is no visible representation of the attack until after it happens.

    You're absolutely correct however that many times stealth classes make trade offs, Subtlety Rogues in WoW are pretty terrible at group combat, but they have a lot of crowd control options which can be put into play to make it more bearable. The key aspect is that in PvP(specifically open world and BG's), is a rogue choose who, when and wear to engage, picking the most vulnerable targets in environments conducive to victory for the rogue. This is a play type that isn't given to any other archetype, and is therefore extremely difficult to balance, resulting in the same buff/nerf cycle discussed earlier.

    Stealth mechanics are fun, doubly so for permanent stealth, but they're both difficult to balance especially in PvP settings where player intelligence and skill change the power of the stealth classes in unpredictable ways. The standard idea that there are trade-offs to being a rogue class is generally invalid when a player exploits stealth, the power it grants, and the psychological games which come with these two things and becomes a dominant force.

    All of this is of course from a purely PvP perspective.
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  8. Bifurcation

    Bifurcation Cupcake

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    Yeah, lots of classes with stealth have a long history of nerfing.
    It's why I personally don't like the ability. Too many issues.
  9. Luc

    Luc Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's a Truly speech, people don't know what ASSASSINATION means...
    at least good moba players don't QQ about this, any carry can easily kill a support or another carry in 3 seconds or less!:ninja:

    [​IMG]
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  10. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    The problem with Stealth classes is that they are designed to be cheap. They are all about not giving the enemy a chance to strike and leaving them helpless before an onslaught of DPS. They are themed as people who "Cheat" in a fight, they play dirty and therefore any tactic or mechanic that is part of the class will be cheap and unfair by design. Often in exchange they lose the ability to deal with a "Fair" fight and when caught are often helpless. This begs the question as to weather or not a MMO's should even be implementing stealth classes in the first place. No offense meant as they are one of the cooler archetypes out there, but they are by definition unfair and if they are not they cease to be a "Rouge" and become more like a flashy warrior. This is why I think MMO's need to start thnking long and hard about weather or not stealth classes will have a future in game design. I think stealth and roguish characters have a place in MMO's though maybe their "relationship" needs to be looked at.
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  11. Tralakar

    Tralakar New Cupcake

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    Honestly, all of this is pretty much based on the very stupid idea that MMORPGs are RPGs before they are MMOs, where PVP Balance and Fairness shouldn't matter. Or, if you prefer, immature people complaining about not being good enough and feeling too weak when they can't one shot everybody like they think they should be able to.

    I honestly can't feel any sort of empathy with OP and am somewhat disgusted to even think that some people still think that way. It could pretty much be resumed to this :

    "I decided to roll a class that I consider cheap and should deny you the right to a fair fight and should kill you before you can do anything, you decided to roll a class that I consider weaker and squishier and it's your fault for dying so easily and that's how I think it should be anyways so suck it up and feed me more glory and e-peen fuel."

    There is no such thing, in recent MMOs, as an "Armor Type Decides Squishiness against other players." I can't think of one popular MMO that did such a thing since WoW and, let's be honest, no MMOs were popular before WoW. The whole concept is simply stupid, unbalanced and would lead to some very obvious population unbalance when it comes down to class representation. If my Mage cannot fight a Rogue fairly in PvP because the rogue has a Better armor class then why would I PvP with said Mage? And if Neither of them can beat the paladin, why would both of them be rolled over a Paladin? It's not just a question of making players happy (Although it IS a valid reason to take when it comes down to game design decisions. Remember, you want your Game to be Successful.) but a question of balance. Balance that SHOULD go beyond Open World PvP.

    Does it mean that a level 20 getting ganked by a level 40 has a right to complain about class imbalance? Not really.

    Does it mean that a level 40 of X class should complain about not winning more than 50% of the time against class Y? No. Absolutely NOT.

    After this, some people might still ask questions like "What's the best class for PvP?" And surely some will always come up but the point is that the answer always changes from patch to patch. "Since last patch, mages are the best." "Oh, Rogues are better right now." "Warriors tear everything lately it seems like." The idea that large differences and unbalance will be patched is what push people to really play what they like the most before they play what they want to do. I play Caster instead of Playing OP PvE Class X. You play Rogue instead of playing OP PvP Class Y. It's fine to roll whatever you want and to do a bit of everything too because no one is more suited for it than anyone else.

    That's something Needed for games.

    And... For f*ck sake... You play a Stealther and say that if someone die unfairly to you, it is their fault for getting NEAR your INVISIBLE character? Really? Did you not read what you wrote before you posted?

    That's just selfish, illogical and disgustingly arrogant.

    And one last thing.

    That whole "Cloth Wearer" thing..... Is really just a way to create restrictions on item uses. It might as well be a basic -30% Physical damage taken buff for Tanks, -15% for other melee DPS and 0% for Ranged. Most of the time, that bonus defense rating for melee classes compared to others amount to that or less anyways. (Unless they spec into tanking and even then....) Then everybody could use the same items and drops. Which would be a LOT easier on devs. But then you'd have people rolling on items that were NOT intended for them because, well, ignorant people are ignorant.

    What's my point? "Armor Types" are there only to restrict loot per classes, nothing else. Using that as some sort of Magical Rule to decide who dies in Melee range or any other range is just... dumb.

    And so, in short, you're wrong.
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  12. Kira_Yamato

    Kira_Yamato New Cupcake

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    OP is such a subjective classification. A good PvP'r will not whine about one class being better than others in PvP. They will learn to mitigate damage, CC more effectively, and gain an advantage rather than nerf one from another player. That's like complaining that a Warrior tank is better than a Stalker tank. You know what PvE'rs do? They roll a Stalker tank if they think that will help them tank better. They don't whine to the devs to nerf the Warrior tank. No, the nerfs come from the land of PvP'ers who don't like finishing at the bottom of the leaderboard, ultimately taking away abilities or reducing their effectiveness from the entire game. I wish they could just nerf certain classes in PvP, and not affect PvE in anyway.
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  13. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    I think the major issue with stealth classes right know is because it takes no effort to stealth in most mmo's. You just magically go "Poof, you don't see me..." It would be alot funner on everyone's part if their where some more skill involved. I don't see games throwing away camouflage completely. However a system that relied on a sort of cone of visibility where stealthed character would be visible to a character if they where in front of theme and within a certain distance, but maybe thats just me.
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  14. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have no problem with class balancing.
    My problem is more about balancing against assassins happens to fast, when people havent learned their classes, and are way undergeared.

    Usually there is 3-4 very good players that plays in guilds and makes a habbit of always finding the best gear with their guildmates and when they go to PvP, they fight people that are severly undergeared.
    Assassin classes are usually mostly depandant on damage of their weapons, get 2 good daggers and they can wreck havok early on.

    But players only see another player, they dont see gear, and call for nerfs.
    When they themselves starts getting geared up, learn their class better and it evens out, those classes will surpas the now nerfed assassin.

    And ive been on both sides of the stick, playing as both assassin and mage.

    Thing is i know its not easy to play an assassin, they have to bide their time until some fool move a bit to far away from their group and then strike.

    Assassins are usually very squishy, so its a matter of killing fast before the teammates notice, or your target use some cc, or just teleports away. If you dont, your dead in seconds yourself.

    When playing mage, i make it a habit to always stand near another teammate, like healer or another mage. If anyone of us gets hit, the other one deals with him, you might say "should you need 2 players to take out 1"
    No, but it will make it much easier to a point where the assassin will think many times before attacking you at all.
    And ontop of that, by the time the assassin gets 1 kill, you have probably gotten 5-6 kills as a mage.

    I was fine getting killed by assassins becouse i knew it was my misstake not always beeing ready for it, and i also knew i shouldnt be able to defeat them in melee range, at max i should be able to escape but mostly not if im stupid and stands on my own without cover.
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  15. Daexel

    Daexel New Cupcake

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    I almost never main stealth users, but I do enjoy them from time to time. I think the problem stems from a seeming unwillingness for developers to stray from the norm. Personally I do not think any class, but stealthers most specifically, should be capable of downing someone from 100 to 0 in less than 5 sec. Stealth alone is not the problem, it is that it is almost always accompanied by ridiculous burst.

    Why not move away from this concept of a stealth user to something more of a scout, less burst and more kiting. You can still play assassin, but one that favors the slow and patient death. I also agree with the notion above that stealth shouldn't just be quick vanishes, but maybe temporary visual fades or other mechanics like those requiring more skill.
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  16. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    Wow, looks like where on the same page! However I do agree with Selodoak Stealth classes are often unfairly nerfed to death after the launch of most games. Mostly because you get alot of "Launch Trash" who expect the game to hand them everything on a silver platter, Get alot of classes nerfed and content simplified and then leave the game for the next MMO to Launch never to return. I'm beginning to believe their all payed by wow to take out their competition.
  17. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    you forgot smuggler :) probably the most op class ever there was ... poor poor inq/sages
  18. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    Well Seeing as how I haven't played WS yet I can't comment on the strength of any class atm. Stealth gets a bad rap earlier. OP is right. I never play stealth but the nature of the beast is, early on when no one is geared, Stealth classes are nasty. They often do get nerfed way to hard.

    "There is no such thing, in recent MMOs, as an "Armor Type Decides Squishiness against other players." I can't think of one popular MMO that did such a thing since WoW and, let's be honest, no MMOs were popular before WoW. The whole concept is simply stupid, unbalanced and would lead to some very obvious population unbalance when it comes down to class representation. If my Mage cannot fight a Rogue fairly in PvP because the rogue has a Better armor class then why would I PvP with said Mage? And if Neither of them can beat the paladin, why would both of them be rolled over a Paladin? It's not just a question of making players happy (Although it IS a valid reason to take when it comes down to game design decisions. Remember, you want your Game to be Successful.) but a question of balance. Balance that SHOULD go beyond Open World PvP." -Tralakar

    Not sure what your implying hear but armor does matter in most mmo's and should matter. Cloth type's armor should blow against mele. That's why they invented kiting and abilities that absorb damage. CC breaks, stun, run and gun. That is what Ranged do in pvp. If you are standing toe to toe with mele you're the overpowered one.

    Rogues are squishy. If they pick a bad target to open on and get caught, in most mmo's, they are either dead or have to escape.

    I think we all can agree on balance. I for one believe that balance should make sense according to my class however. So lets say for example Rogues are particularly good against Ranged when they get the opener but if the Player survives the opening burst and as the fight goes on it should and usually does swing in favor of skilled ranged. Warrior however should fair better vs the burst of a rogue but now they are in range for all of the Rogues CC.

    Classes should have balance through players understanding there strengths and weakness with proper design. So if you are a Ranged who's used your stun breaks, popped your cd's already, and get caught with you pants down, guess what? You're dead dude. As it should be.
  19. SuperomegaOP

    SuperomegaOP New Cupcake

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    in terms of pvp, the class that can stealth and/or a melee class with healing offset.

    EX: swtor, hybrid healer scoundrel/operative and the hybrid tank shadow/assassin

    these pvp classes were the best in the game. both had damage, utility, stealth and both could heal and were tanky.

    if the engineer is melee dps/healer then im totally rolling that, if not its stalker.
  20. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    Rogues/assassin/Thief actually takes a lot of skill to play properly...funny how everyone forgets that.
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