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The Return of the Flying Mount Thread

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Yakzan, May 15, 2013.

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  1. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    After discussions on IRC and with all the talk about the questionability of flying mounts in Wildstar recently, I felt necessary to create a thread for discussion about how people feel about flying mounts. Should they be in or not? If they should be in, should they be as we always knew them or perhaps a new system created for them? Just try to keep the discussion civil and not force your opinions upon others. Try to make this a thread full of ideas and discussion rather than a soapbox, that's all I ask!
    (The quote is from Gazimoff of ZAM's interview with Jeremy Gaffney)
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  2. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    Launch with flying mounts and have restrictions, like the gas tank, on all the vehicular mounts. You can refuel at a town/hub. I think that is good enough balance. Yes? Also adds a fuel station (Settler) mechanic to the game.

    Being in a Sci-Fi setting, I sorta see flying/hovering mounts being the same. Although hovering are most likely basic mounts. I don't see the need for spaceship (can travel from planet to planet) to be flying around in low orbit around Nexus.

    So, if hovering mounts are normal mounts, I'm fine with that as the only use.
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  3. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    As I said in the IRC, I always loved flying in MMO-s. I know it can have negative effects, but the feeling when you riding your awesome dragon and flying over beautiful places is priceless.

    So.. I'd love to have flying mounts in the game, but I also want the other players who don't love the traditional flying mount systems to be happy.

    We came up with some ideas... and I think I love the cooldown idea the most.

    In that way, when you want to fly just the sake of flying (or just traveling fast somewhere) it's fine. You can do it. But you can't use it to skip content just for one thing.

    For a negative example: X want to fly to unique mob, kill it and fly away.

    This way.. X can fly there and can kill it, but can't fly for minutes, so he have to go with a ground mount or have to wait until the debuff wears off.

    The point is.. you can't repeatedly fly somewhere, mount off, and fly again. You have to decide, where and when do you want to fly.
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  4. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Launch with flying mounts but have restrictions.
    This is ideal - add refueling stations and oh god all your ideas are exactly what I was going to say.

    /humbled

    I love flying and having some form of free form flight would be amazing. Gold sink, good for just relaxing and if you add fueling stations, BAM makes hubs important for everyone, adds a social aspect to hubs as folks will fly to it and congregate. Adds restrictions to flight and it gives settlers more things to build.

    Want a flight hub deep in a territory? Have paths work together to get to the area, clear out mobs, have a scientist figure out how to make it habitable and then a settler can start building it up.
  5. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love collecting cool flying mounts personally so id like to see wildstar put restrictions on them so people can't take advantage of them to skip content and gank though too so idk tough call
  6. Dwel

    Dwel Cupcake

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    Hi, hello, nice to see you are well Yakzan, here is my contribution to this legendary thread (to be):

    I'm 'biased' towards both having them and not having them. I do not have a strong opinion towards either side, what I would like is exploration and travel in the game done right, however that may be.

    Having flying mounts (and now we must refer to them as we know them in other MMOs) provides convenience and easy travel around the world. Not having flying mounts takes that away, but provides the possibility of player interaction and stories. The lack of player interaction is the biggest argument against flying mounts, yet I believe it is partly missplaced.

    Next views are based on being level capped (assumption: no flying during leveling):

    Give or take, the reason why players do not roam the world is because they have no reason to. You level up, you get max level, then you stick to the "max level" zone; this is the general song in most MMOs. The fact that I have no incentive for going back into the world is what is killing player interaction and the stories found while traveling.

    If Wildstar can provide that incentive to roam the world, then it will not matter if there are flying mounts or not, I will personally have fun and enjoy the ride. If they don't provide that reason to be, then again, flying mounts or not, I'll be in the same area all the time.

    In a nutshell, I believe the way to provide interactions and stories is to create the opportunities and incentives for them. A lack of flying mounts can create opportunities, but only if the players decide to even venture into the world and travel.

    ---------

    Separate view:

    Flying with restrictions (fuel, can only start up from certain points) is quite interesting as well as it can turn traveling into a game of its own.
  7. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Gliding.

    Or different types on each mount (super jump etc) that are acquired in different areas designed for that type.
  8. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Fuel is the best way of dealing with it imho, being able to take people down leads to griefing.

    just make fuel either recharcheble at city's or make it recharge itself (once it depetes) at a aceptble pace.

    Just dont make fuel cost money, make it free(inside the city's) and create a consumable (this one should not be free) for the road
  9. Mianhe

    Mianhe New Cupcake

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    I don't see a good reason not to have flight, so long as it's not done half-assedly.

    I believe the main argument against it of "I hate flying mounts because others can skip content" is flawed for the following reasons:

    You don't hate Flying Mounts, you hate terrible design - You don't hate the idea of having people flying around at certain point in the game, you hate how it's been done in other MMOs, which is a silly reason to shut down new ideas, but sadly that is the most vocal MMO crowd we get to see, the ones who can't let go of nostalgia and believe games such as WoW died a little with the implementation of flying mounts.

    What I want to explore, and how I want to explore shouldn't be dictated by others - Yes, seeing me in a mount for those exciting 5 seconds while I aggro everything and run by it wont make a difference on whether I want to skip content or not. It shouldn't. I know this isn't a singleplayer game, but if your entire 'immersive' experience is ruined by not seeing me pass by with my YOLOSWAG420 in a ground mount with 20mobs ready to drop aggro, then you should re-visit the reasons you're still playing the game for.
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  10. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    for that to work well the game areas would have to be re-designed around it.
  11. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Must admit reading Gaffer's comments (also in the live Q and A) makes me quite sad...

    I played city of heroes and never heard anyone complain about flying, played champions online and never saw a complaint about it...

    WoW may have terribly implemented flying mounts but the game wasn't originally made for them, Wild star obviously is... I really don't want to see us miss out on things like hidden zones, flying "races" through hoops etc just because some people are afraid this game will be just like another one.

    I really wish people would consider other games than WoW that include flying before "killing" a feature Carbine worked for years on without even seeing it... constructive criticism like Fuel tanks, slow speed, ways to avoid trivialising explorer content I can completely get behind but don't forget there is a huge difference between building a game for a feature and implementing it later...
  12. Phyllo

    Phyllo Cupcake

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    Why has WoW declined over the years? All blizzard does is nerf fun.

    Flying is fun, it's not the reason WoWs immersion broke or the game isn't doing as good as 5 years ago.

    I actually see more of the world from flying and generally love to fly close to the ground through chasms and trees and glide over water. I go places with flying that I would never go on foot. All flying does is make things faster when I don't have tons of time on my hands.

    The only thing breaking immersion is yourself. :D

    If you want it to take a day and a half to get somewhere go play morrowind =P.

    Don't nerf the fun before the game is even out =(.

    As for the "it ruins world pvp", I wont even be on your pvp server so ha you wont be able to gank me anyway. If it's that huge an issue disable flying mounts on pvp servers. :roflamo:

    I do like the fuel idea though, same philosophy as their sprint mechanic. Use it wisely or get eaten by something.
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  13. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love flying mounts. My reasons are 1. joy of flying 2. joy in seeing the world from a bird's eye perspective 3. joy in collecting mount 4. joy in playing around (swooping, diving, 360's, etc.)

    I would prefer to 1. hatch an egg and 'raise' mount which can take 50 lvls. 2. build a motorized mount from scratch and get the parts from a series of quests from lvl1 to lvl50 3. capture mount and train...could take to lvl 50. 4. Really want a stable to show off mount at my home space.
  14. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    The problem with "WoW Style" flying mounts, is that there's not really any world up there. Flying specifically means avoiding the world in that game, and flying itself isn't entertaining. You get above the world, you aim in the right direction and then you auto-run, and since there is no world up there to interfere with the process this is just the equivalent of a taxi ride with less interesting scenery.

    Now the WS world might have been designed to support flying, but it still doesn't look like there's a whole world up there in the sky, and this isn't something that will change before release. If you put a WoW style 'noclip' flying mount into the game which is designed simply to allow people to bypass to world, you're not really improving the experience. That doesn't mean flight in general is bad, simply that the WoW model offers nothing particularly interesting.

    I see 2 seperate issues with the system, the first being that the most effective way of travelling is to fly way above the world, auto run and afk. Assuming empty sky isn't very compelling content, it would be better if the system forced players down into the world in some fashion, where the flying component was used more as a way to scale a large mountain or a chasm, rather than to facilitate travel through low earth orbit.

    The second issue is pressing forwards to go forwards isn't very compelling gameplay. In a combat scenario you have much more going on to occupy yourself with, but when travelling across large expanses of world, there really needs to be something more to do than autorun and wait. Flying should be a magical and engaging experience, like you would imagine flying to be, because it's <REDACTED>ing flying ok?

    A combination of some actual physics, obfuscated controls and flight limitations such as fuel could resolve both issues. For example, PChan and a few others in IRC pointed out that Aion gliding felt really fun, and made a game out of simple movement, where the world becomes your toy. Not the flying, the gliding. The reason this system is entertaining while actual flight (read: swimming in the air) is dull, is because you do not have perfect control over your movement. Instead of floating perfectly still and moving wherever you point, the gliding mechanics leave you at the mercy of gravity and momentum - you have control over your movement, but it's not perfect control, and getting the gliding player to do what you want to do becomes a puzzle, a game to amuse you.

    Throw some physics in there, lets have something more interesting than autorunning through air, and keep players in the world space.

    Offhand suggestion while we were brainstorming in the IRC channel earlier - Flying mounts which need to expend fuel in order to blast off into the air, perhaps with a bit of a run-up, and once airborne will conserve momentum. After burning fuel to get into the sky, you are then forced to glide to a location, controlling yourself in the air to try and land where you want to. The fuel doesn't refill untill you've spend some amount of time on the ground.
  15. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    This isn't a great argument in your favor.

    The 3 biggest reasons that have come up so far are -

    1. Ruining the Explorer class, or even "exploration" in general, which is one of the big features of the game, where they want people to find hidden areas in the game, and finding hidden areas is one way you get people back into zones even at cap.

    2. World Pvp, this is pretty much covered and doesnt need more explanation.

    3. Enabling people to "fast track" whatever content they are currently doing. The faster you can get from point A to B, the faster you can begin and end, which in turn means the faster you are done. This is along the same lines as minimizing "portal" features, and having the LFD tool place groups at the edge of a zone, so that they travel on foot or ground mount to the entrance.
    Preventing the "go go go" mentality should be a high priority for this game.
  16. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    As a huge fan of world PvP, I would prefer if flying was heavily restricted or not allowed in contested areas. My second preference would be mounts capable of limited aerial combat, which would be amazing. Combat mounts would also allow for a lot of customization by ways of weapon choices, ejection seats, etc.

    Flying should be at least as dangerous as traveling by ground in a game with the technology it has. It would make absolutely no sense that people could just fly on through contested areas without any danger of being attacked by the opposing faction. People like to bring up the immersion factor as being a reason for flight, but tend to ignore the realities of flying in combat environments.

    edit:
    I also heavily agree with this!
  17. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    The game is already designed with flying mounts in mind. No matter what they do they're going to have to re-design something, that's what iterative development is all about.
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  18. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the best would be flying in which you can only take-off and land in designated areas (and you can recall to house mid-flight in case you need to log off etc.). This way you can stilll have free form flight to explore and view the world, but it doesn't impact World PVP and questing content.
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  19. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really like this idea of fuel or limited time flying, and I think that would really solve a lot of problems that flying has.

    For me the big problems that flying causes are bypassing content, shrinking the world, skipping monsters on the ground, possibly trivializing jumping puzzles.

    If they added a fuel station that could really help solve some of these problems. If they added these fuel stations to major questing hubs, those places would become lively as players who are passing by who are low on fuel would be be forced to land there. This would mean low level players would see max level players in the world, because I am sure some will afk in these towns, or might be more inclined to vendor trash in these places since they are already there.

    Depending on the amount of fuel you have available you won't be able to skip a lot of content. However, I still see that jumping puzzles might be trivialized even with a limited amount of fuel.

    Adding fuel stations would also be another gold sink, and gold sinks are always good for the economy in the game.

    I am not a fan of flying mounts, but if they added a fuel supply to flying mounts I think that would be a pretty good tradeoff.
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  20. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    I despise flying mounts, but I understand some people like them. I simply feel that it removes a person from the world at large. You're no longer taking part in the world while you're traveling you're simply flying past it. There's no sense of danger or excitement from my perspective. One of the main things that's been missing from the genre as of late has been the journey and flying safely above everything in order to get to where you want to go lightning fast is the perfect example of this.

    Yakzan's idea of launch ports and landing zones with free-flight in the air would be my ideal compromise. People can fly over the world at their discretion, but if they see that rare mob they need to jet to a landing pad and go through the actual world to get to it. I can't tell you how many times I've had some moron on a flying mount steal a resource or mob I was working my way towards and I couldn't do anything in return for them stealing it. They just hopped back on their Wyvern and flew away.
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