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what can Wildstar learn from Guild Wars 2?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by salluks, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Drarorm

    Drarorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh, that's what you meant, then yes I agree also :up:
     
  2. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh, I loooooove the way GW2 handles endgame itemization. It's fairly easy to get the stats you need, and the trick is making sure you have all the visual appearances you need. It's impossible to make items that look "progressively cooler," since appearance is subjective. Most WoW endgame gear, for example, looks like clown costumes, but people wear them anyways because they have high stats. GW2 is much more broad, and people can go for the looks they want. Most of my characters have visuals that are some combination of endgame, mid-game, and starter gear.

    Except for all those millions that do, of course. Don't forget them, because they're the ones that pay for raids to happen.

    True, which is why it's important to give good reasons for players of all levels to want to interact in all zones. This is definitely a lesson they can learn from GW2, as of my eight level 80s, only two or three of them actually regularly engage in level 80 content.

    But WoW is a financial success. Plenty of games aren't, and when they are, that's a good thing. I can't think of any games that are a financial success without also being a good game, to some people at least. Call of Duty, maybe.
     
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  3. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    Positive lessons:
    - Attractive, customizable characters and gear, fun dynamic gameplay, and a fair business model will sell an awful lot of boxes.
    - Lots of players enjoy exploration, if the game gives them some incentives for doing it.
    - There are some nice convenience features that I think many other games could copy.
    - Putting even a tiny element of thought or discovery into crafting makes it more enjoyable.

    Negative lessons:
    - Players really do expect an endgame, and many won't be willing to hang around your game for months buying things from the cash shop for the occasional dynamic event. Players need a variety of things to do and assurances that content will keep coming.
    - PvP is an important part of the endgame and needs tending to if it's going to retain a player base.
    - A poorly-written, cliched story is worse than no story at all.
    - If you don't encourage players to form organized groups very early on, many will never bother doing so, and certain players will drift away from your game without organized group play.
    - Letting everyone loot everything and gather from every node ruins your game's economy.
    - Playing the game, not the UI means that many players will play the game and curse at the clunky UI.
     
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  4. Screenager

    Screenager Cupcake-About-Town

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    agreed something I tend to feel that gw2 did very well or certainly is now is the way anet is dealing with gear, how it looks, item customisation, etc.

    In fact I feel the way the living story is being handled now is a great way to handle the pve side of the game (my opinion thats all)



    It has to be said it does look like the fundamental combat system has a lot of similarities to wildstar and the gem store in general feels pretty fair.

    This is coming from a player that's still in GW2 and while Iove a lot of things about nothings perfect and there are a number of issues like the wvw development / progression, guild management systems and rng cash items that I wish could be tackled. These have probably somewhat influenced my lines of questioning when it comes to wildstar just because i've seen what can cause frustration and burn out
     
  5. MaximTheRaven

    MaximTheRaven Cupcake

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    This. Actually, I really couldn't have put this better myself.
     
  6. Draxus

    Draxus Cupcake

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    So true !
    They seemed not to understand that at the beginning even if GW1 was pvp based.
     
  7. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    Yes, I would like to see low level instances like RageFire chasm ( a level 7 instance ) so that people can learn early on what PVE is about. Similarily, we need good world PVP that starts at level 10 so that people can learn early on what PVP is about. Having instances start only at level 40 makes no sense at all. They need PVE instances like ragefire chasm which players can enjoy early on in their early levels. If players have to learn PVE at level 40, they won't bother or have the time to learn to PVE properly.

    Early level world PVP would encourage players to do more PVP later on.
     
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  8. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never really took the original GW seriously when it was released in 2005 especially with WoW really picking up steam at that point.
    Gw2 for me is like a placebo MMO they removed all the features I have come to see as staples in MMO's replaced those feature with nothing and then told everyone it was innovative and revolutionary.

    -no trinity
    -no mounts
    -no progression
    -no factions
    -no owpvp
    -no story or lore
    - no endgame + any new MMO = recipe for disaster

    All game breakers for me, but not the case with WildStar however, I have universally heard good things about GW2 world design that it feels immersive, lively and creative.
    An immersive world should be a staple for all MMO's so I'll take plenty of that and leave the rest.

    ..also +1 for GW2 character customization
     
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  9. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    Exactly. The game's structure doesn't do much to encourage formal grouping while questing, so I think it's particularly important that players get some opportunities to learn how to work with each other as soon as they've tiptoed out of the starting area. Obviously not everyone is going to take advantage of those opportunities, but having them available right away shows they're important parts of the game and also encourages a little more experimentation. No one's mastered the game at level 7 or level 10, so I feel that people who are a little less sure of their ability level in groups are more willing to take a chance than they might be in the middle of the leveling process, when people tend to be impatient and in a hurry and quick to judge.

    I also think the lack of early level group content ends up making the game and the leveling process hard on people who want to level in ways besides crafting or doing open world PvE. Running around and doing dynamic events is fun enough at first, but if you're on your second character, it gets to be a pain. That's particularly the case given GW2's leveling curve.
     
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  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Booo. I would HATE to go back to playing a game where you have to race other players to harvesting nodes. Even the seasonal "kite baskets" and "holo projectors" in GW2 were a cause of unneeded strife. "first come, first serve" harvesting nodes are a relic of the distant past.

    So long as it's on PvP servers only, of course. Players should never be "encouraged" to PvP though, it should just be something they can do if they want, and if they don't, then they should have no reason to bother. One reoccuring problem GW2 does have is that they keep trying to nudge players into WvW and sPvP with achievements and stuff, and it gets pretty annoying.

    The less formal grouping, the better. It should all be about fluid "cooperating," in which two or more players can work towards the same objectives, rather than encouraging players to use the "invite" function.
     
  11. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    When people here are saying this game has no endgame they should specify that it is no PVE endgame.

    WvW is my endgame.
     
  12. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    It's a difficult balancing act to get right. Make grouping irrelevant and you end up with a "ships that pass in the night" phenomenon which isn't great for improving the social aspect (and Carbine is well aware of the importance of social aspects with regards to player retention).

    Make it hard and it's likely to just get ignored.

    I do prefer leaning towards the GW2 style where you can help people you find out in the world, vs the Tera model where I would avoid helping people because you could end up making the killing blow and griefing them by accident.

    I think there is definite value in both fluid cooperation as well as formal grouping in the open world (and variants in between).
     
  13. IronLich

    IronLich New Cupcake

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    Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I've noticed a major imbalance between classes, especially for PvE. Every person I see inquire about tips for leveling or DPS tricks or dungeon guides are answered with, "start a warrior, guardian, or mesmer. They are OP right now." Granted that can change with any given patch, but should the shifts in power be that vast? Nothing is going to bug an advanced player more than having their favorite class be overlooked and struggling for months on end.
     
  14. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    It's a potential problem across the MMO genre in general and not exclusive to GW2.

    Class balance is indeed a big issue and I'm interested in seeing how LAS will impact class balance. First though, I need to know the final two classes!
     
  15. Screenager

    Screenager Cupcake-About-Town

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    indeed however we did see major burnout from this side of the game due to lack of content update and this has in fact had the effeect of (in my opinion) lowering toe overall quality of the play and player in the wvw aspect of the game. I'd kill for the resources that are being thrown at the living story to be directed into wvw ;)

    So in some aspect I actually feel the accusation of "lack of endgame" isn't as relevent to the PvE side of the game as much any more with this and fractals while wvw is fundamentally unchanged at this time. (ok its had changes but same maps same goals pretty much)

    This does highlight further though that having an engaging game at all levels both endgameand via the levelling process that are distinctly different (a lot of wvwers levelled through this) is in itself important. This is however something that Carbine have expressed themselves so I'm hoping that this won't be an issue come the release of Wildstar
     
  16. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    This is usually caused by nerfing a class because it's too powerful in PVP, resulting in a sub-par class in PVE.
     
  17. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love ships that pass in the night. It's my absolute favorite type of interaction. If I feel like starting a conversation, I will, but more often than not I just do so over map chat. I'm had plenty of dungeon runs in which we didn't say anything at all, or maybe just a few simple "I got this bit" stuff, while some of my most interesting social interactions were during open world content in which nobody said anything, but everyone was gelling well together to accomplish a goal as smoothly as possible.

    Now, the UI and all that should be effortless, of course, if someone feels like grouping then doing so should be as effortless as they can possibly make it, it just shouldn't be something that players feel nudged into doing whether they feel like it or not.

    Eh, that's not entirely accurate. You should NEVER start with a Mesmer (unless you're the type that likes to jump into the deep end and try not to drown). Mesmers are unquestionably the hardest class in the game to play, especially at lower levels. By endgame they get better, but are still tricky. The reason they get selected is that they come in handy in a lot of group content, almost any group wants one Mesmer around, especially for CoF farming runs. They aren't really great healers, and healers aren't necessary in GW2, but the social niche they fill is similar to that of healers in some older games("looking for healer"). They are also really annoying in WvW.

    But yeah, definitely start as a Warrior or Guardian if you want to start easy, you'll be in high demand, have lower risk, and their mechanics aren't too hard to master. Still, the other classes are plenty fun, and the elitism that goes into some group forming is more myth than fact. I do regular dungeon runs using a Thief and do just fine. I've done plenty of pick-up group runs where none of us were Mesmers, Warriors, or Guardians and it works fine.

    That said, they could certainly tweak a few things if they wanted.

    Sure, but it's almost inevitable. I've played dozens of MMOs and can't recall one that didn't have massive power balance swings and claims of "OP" or "Broken" classes, some justified, some not so much. It's just a very complicated thing to manage. I'm sure Carbine will do their best, and we just have to hope that's good enough.

    Really though the whole point of PvP content is that the other players are meant to be the content, so they can focus actual content teams on other area of the game that are more dependent on new material. I think they've put a lot of new stuff into WvW recently, and while it isn't really my thing so I only dabble in it, there seems to be a lot going on.

    That's always something that annoys me, but so far ANet has been pretty good about this, by nerfing the ability only in PvP modes, or by changing it in a way that doesn't really hurt it. I can't think of anything that was "completely innocent" on the PvE side that got crushed due to PvP conflicts. I hope Carbine operates under the same policy, never nerfing PvE servers because something's going on on the PvP ones.
     
  18. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I Just wanted to point out that an RvR type PVP game mode is an endgame for many people. For me its they only part of the game I still enjoy (other than a bit of time in the private spvp arena to duel).
    While I would love to see the same amount of resources devoted to WvW as living story I doubt it will ever happen. :)

    Wait are you guys the Afterlife from piken ? HAI Piken!
    <-- Gandara :p

    It may seem that there are a lot of stuff being added but it wasn’t the stuff most WvWers wanted.
    We wanted the orbs of power back to give us another thing to do in matches.
    We wanted bigger maps with more terrain variation not just wide open spaces so that smaller groups have a chance to break up the zerg. Bigger maps make it harder for an 80 map zerg to move around the map as fast as they do now.
    we wanted the commander system fixed and guild raid frames with a guild icon for the guild raid leader viewable only by the guild. same as the commander icon only just for the guild.


    We got World XP which while it gives us some rewards and new abilities also encourages zerging because the best and most efficient way yo get WXP is to farm it in zergs run over people and taking flipping objectives.
     
  19. Screenager

    Screenager Cupcake-About-Town

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    fair point and HAAAAAI you guuuuuuys :D

    yep it's us

    you'll find a few other noteable guild kicking over from GW2 including our friends fro Boon and VOTF. We're still playing at this time in Desolation but as you've seen we are looking to expand over into wildstar. I def feel having played the demo at rezed that the combat system is very intuative to anyone that's played gw2 already

    This is no bad thing
     
  20. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I miss the old Piken at least we get to see some of you lot on AG especially the TUPies.
    Thanks for for your comment about the combat system it looks cool but I have not played yet so I appreciate your insight.
     

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