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what can Wildstar learn from Guild Wars 2?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by salluks, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Doomgrin

    Doomgrin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not specific to GW2, simply do not half-ass a system in. If it has to be in, make it right and push the launch date. If it does not need to be in launch, then hold off and patch it in later with sufficient testing.

    I would suggest a public test server. Its amazing what good things can come of those.

    I will agree with posts above regarding many lottery/random items, especially for cosmetic gear. While I reserve some epic rare drops should be just that (epic and rare), I think most things in the game should be a true reward and an achievable goal. When I can buy 1000 boxes and not get a neat holiday/event skin, and the next guy gets it on the first try that is a broken system.
     
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  2. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    I quit the game long, long ago, but that's pretty much the problem I'm getting at. People in the game don't want to group formally, and the game does so little to support it that players are forced to use an outside website rather than being able to find groups in chat, use a game-supported tool, or download an add-on. It's a great design for people who enjoy the zerg-against-the-boss feel, but there's not a lot there for someone who enjoys playing in a group that lasts for more than one kill. It has its place in some games, but I'm glad to see that WildStar doesn't appear to be going down that path.


    There's no reason the demand for leveling gear should be so much different than in other games. My observation of GW2's economy is that because resources are so easily farmed, far too many people craft, leading there to be a ridiculous excess of leveling gear.

    And, yes, I do think it's possible for too many people to craft. For crafting to have any meaning at all, it should require a bit of investment so that people can specialize in it just as they do PvP or raiding.
     
  3. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    If supply was limited to 1 node per zone that re-spawned once per day would the market prices be the same or different?

    You cannot dismiss the supply side of things like you have. There are demand issues I agree.
     
  4. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    GW2 -

    Good:

    • The overflow system. The best way to deal with server queues i have ever seen. Pure genious!
    • The game engine seemed to deal with 25-50 players quite well. WvWvW seemed rough though, but not really my thing so didnt see much.
    • Crafting. I like certain aspects of crafting, mostly the discovery part of it. Better than wow.
    • Melee hunters!
    • Jumping puzzles. Had the most fun BY FAR in gw2 on the puzzles. Doing the massive puzzles in a grp of 3-5 players was amazing. Best fun i have had in an mmo in YEARS.
    Bad:

    • Teleports instead of mounts. Did not like it, felt like a fully instanced world when it was not.
    • Endgame. They forgot to put one in :(
    • Downed state. No...just no.
    • Weapon / skill system. Seemed cool at first, but tired of it really quickly.
    • Payment model. Do not like B2P or F2P. I actually like my monthly payments.
    • A community one - Beta is Beta......but its not ALPHA!
    • Gear progression - Totally borked up because of the lack of endgame.
    Obviously i have other good/bad, but those are the first ones that popped into my mind.
     
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  5. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think so and I'm not blaming anything on GW2 since I have no interest in it, but maybe I can refine my point which is..

    1. WildStar and Gw2 are two very different games aside from the typical MMO correlations and 2. progression has a dynamic effect on gathering, crafting and the economy overall depending on the existence or non-existence of progression.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but, I'm under the impression that GW2 has no progression therefore no practical need for new gear with improved stats . As you level up in GW2 cosmetics is the motivation?

    Not the case with WildStar therefore crafted gear will have a value as players advance to max level.
    Aside from typical progression as time passes and people create alts there will also be a market for twink gear and lots of money to be made for crafters supplying such gear.

    Progression is a key feature in a game where equipping not just your character but, also your house along with what Carbine has proposed with circuit board crafting. Raw materials gain a whole different level of importance.
     
  6. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    The problem is you are not working together towards anything. You just happen to be doing the same thing, there is no coordination involved.

    I can deal with this type of content in the game as long as you have group content early on as well. Don't do DEs and then call it group content when I never have to join, talk, or coordinate with any of the players around the DEs.
     
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  7. Xemma

    Xemma New Cupcake

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    - No 5 hour maintenances every week.
    - Everyone being able to harvest a node is a good thing. You just need to make sure there's not too many sources for the less usefull materials (e.g. pretty much no one in GW2 needs t5 cloth and leather but they drop like candy).
    - Most armorset looks should mix and match well without clipping. People like looking unique and for many players the quest for creating a cool looking armorset is viable end game content.
    - RNG boxes suck. I want to earn my rewards, not rely on my luck for them.
    - Overflows are awesome. Queuing for hours only to dc 5 minutes later and having to queue again is not.
    - Ground targeting (GW2's version of telegraphs) is really smoothly and well done. I hope WS takes a lesson in that for their telegraph system.
    - Making crafting too easy and the fastest way to level floods the market and makes crafters less valuable. Crafting should be for those who enjoy it, not for those who want to level fast.
    - Dead should be dead and downed state is bad for PvP and rewards zerging over playing well. If you've ever fough a zerg with smaller numbers in WvW you know what I mean.
    - If you're not gonna bother having competent core testers, have a public test server. I'd say most of he exploits and stupidity delivered in GW2 patches wouldn't be there if they had test server.
    - You can't ignore 2/3 of your community and expect players to stay *coughWvWandsPvPcough*
    - Making PvE all about pure DPS race and making the more supporty playstyles completely unviable makes PvE boring.
    - Never ever have culling in PvP (altho it's not good in PvE either).
    - Sell junk button. The best feature of GW2.
    - Let low level dungeons be for low level players and high level dungeons for high level players. Trying to make low level dungeons playable for high level players just makes life unnecessary hard for the low level players the dungeon is ment for.
    - If you are going to have an item that is supposedly hard to achieve and requires a lot of work to get, DO NOT make it achievable with just luck and money. Legendaries were such a fail.
    - Majority of the skills being castable while moving and eliminating jump kiting makes for more fun combat.
    - If you're gonna introduce a perma-stealth spec for a class then at least make sure it's fun to fight against.
    - I took part in killing something -> I get loot and EXP. Reduces the amount of griefing and accidental kill steals greatly.
     
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  8. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I really loved this in Guild Wars 2. You work hard to squish things around something your after, only to have someone else come in and steal it. I was so happy when I discovered Guild Wars had this.

    The only good thing about the downed state seemed to be with PvE where it made it easy for people to get back into a fight. When you were truly squished, reviving took a while. Then again, Guild Wars 2 didn't really have a 'healer' class. Where as Wildstar does. Also, the downed state allowed us to move our bodies with certain skills. Which meant that we could make sure that when we were really squished, we would be in a place that it would be easy for others to revive us. I always liked being able to move someone's body. It would be neat if a Granok could 'throw' someone's corpse.

    Yes! Test servers prevent big problems from exploding into ......uhm. Really bigger problems. Plus it also lets us preview upcoming patches for those who want.

    This is one reason why I stopped playing. Variety is good! I mostly played as an elementalist and I was constantly looking for ways to switch skills after a while so I could be more supportish and healish. It's nice being able to change from focusing on maximum damage after 80 levels.

    Best button ever! Though the presence of junk itself is always kind of annoying. I never really saw the point of having hundreds of different kinds of things that are worth money, but just take up space otherwise. It would be nice if junk had another purpose other than just to sell for money.

    This kind of worries me in Wildstar. Since I hope to play as an Esper and many of the videos with them show that their skills, at least most of them, seem to cause rooting.

    This was great! It encouraged people to actually help others. Instead of heading in the opposite direction. The original person didn't get penalized for the help either.
     
  9. morroIan

    morroIan New Cupcake

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    What GW2 did right that WS can use:
    Overflow servers
    The upgrade process with almost no server downtime.
    Fluid action combat
    A beautiful world

    What GW2 did wrong is a long list but some things spring to mind that have already been mentioned:
    RMT with the gem store
    An over reliance gambling boxes
    sPvP being too one dimensional with only 1 game type
    Poor class balancing, arenanet originally said they were going to have more iterative type changes rather than big bang changes but on many many changes they completely overshot the mark and made too big a change. Plus they never had enough resources devoted to class balancing.
    Lack of guild management tools even now.
    Culling
    Taking too long to fix bugs and issues with the game eg. culling
    WvW is not really relevant but they ignored it for too long a time when it could have been the eldergame pull for a lot of players and guilds.
     
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    No. Simple as "no." Like I said, cloth and leather, which in GW2 does not drop from resources, but instead drops only from loot, sells for roughly the same amount, or less, than same-tier harvestables like metals and wood. If it were true that sharing harvesting nodes made materials too common and therefore too cheap, then cloth and leather would sell for at least twice as much, across the board, as same tier wood and metal in GW2's economy. That is a fact regardless of how other games do it.

    Furthermore, if material supply is an issue, as I said, the devs can solve that easily enough by just requiring more material. If the recipes on a given tier require 5 steel to make, and steel is going too cheaply in the marketplace, they can raise that cost to 10 steel and it balances out. Again, this is something that's already been done with certain materials, so we aren't talking theory here.

    Long story short, no matter how much supply enter the economy, they can compensate for that. The reason why prices drop on materials is because nobody WANTS them, not because there are too many of them entering the economy. This is not up for debate.

    Well, they're making a better LFG tool in game, but the thing is, grouping is just so unnecessary that most people don't need to, and that's a good thing. Grouping is typically only done for dungeons, and there typically aren't enough people in your server, in your map who want to do that dungeon at the same time you are, so it might take a while if you use map chat exclusively. Most of the community is perfectly fine using the website to form groups, and even at . . . 4am est, I see over forty groups forming to run the more popular dungeons, and at least a few forming to do the less popular ones. It's really not hard to form a group for activities that require them.

    And yet it is. I've had perfectly good level 60 rare gear at level 60 and decided not to equip it because I knew that my level 50 blue gear would be fine to carry me to the 70s at least. Some games are fairly brutal about lockstepping you to cap, if you're at level 60 and have any level 58 gear on, you're struggling, and if your average gear level isn't 59 then you're dead meat. In GW2, by contrast, your stats are extremely lenient, and you can run level 79 content wearing a full set of level 50 gear and not be that bad off for it, in 70+ greens you'd be doing great.

    This lack of need to stay on the gear train through much of the game is what keeps demand low, and therefore it really doesn't matter what supply is, because even at current prices most people don't buy gear, and if the prices rose they'd buy even less. The only gear with ANY trade value is stuff with a cool unique look, and even then only the cheapest possible versions have any value because they can be transmuted onto better stuff.

    They would likely be higher, but not because they deserved to be (and chances are no crafters would be able to craft, including any of you that consider yourselves crafters). The problem is, the primary demand for most harvested materials is to level your craft from tier X to tier Y, which takes roughly 76 ore. There is demand in so far as it keeps that filled, but really, that isn't crafting, that is achievement farming and leveling via crafting. There's no demand for the finished products, and most people either vendor them or salvage them back into raw materials.

    The point is, the supply, for better or worse, is where ANet wants it to be. It they wanted supply to be tighter, they have the tools to make that happen. Basically, if you want to craft, and profit from crafting in GW2, the availability of resources is not your problem.

    I LOVE downed state. Every game should have it. Some classes have far more useful downed states than others though, or balanced in odd ways. I think that if every class had an equal rigging of 1- basic ranged attack to ping enemies down, 2- escape move that allows you to move at least 900 distance in a direction of your choosing, 3- "get out of jail" ability that gives you a very good chance of rezzing, and 4- the standard heal, then it would work much better. As it is, only 1/3 of the classes have a halfway decent 3 and/or 4.

    I do think they are more hassle than they should be in PvP modes though.If had had control over GW2 I might remove them completely in PvP, or make Finishing Moves an instant cast or something.

    This is ridiculous. If you like a sub model, just spend $10 per month on gems and you'll be fine.

    Not entirely. Better gear does have better stats, it's just that the curve is extremely forgiving, so there is no absolute necessity to have optimal gear at most points in the game. Once you hit 80, there is some progression to get a full set of 80 exotics and ascended trinkets, and if you're going to do optimal content you'll want those things, but that's a single tier, and a reasonably wealthy player could acquire all that in minutes if he really wanted to, tens of hours of solid effort if he wanted a less expensive route, but in either case it's not all that hard to do.

    Yes, which is why I suspect that Wildstar's crafter economy will work better for the crafters, even IF they had "instanced" harvesting nodes like GW2 had. I'm not saying Wildstar should copy GW2's economy exactly, there are clearly flaws there, I just think that the instanced harvesting nodes in GW2 are great and would hate to see the "node rush ninja looting" return.

    Eh, maybe. I've played plenty of games with and without a Test, and I think ANet actually does a quite solid job at reducing bugs in patches, and fixing them rapidly when found. Yeah, they have bugs, but I haven't seen an MMO yet that didn't.

    It's a dev trick. It's a time management tool. It makes it so that you can't just farm farm farm and never go back to town, because your bags will end up with junk taking up slots, so you need to drop those off with someone. I wouldn't hugely miss it, but it does add a certain familiar flavor to the game (so long as the bagging system isn't too oppressive).
     
  11. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lets see.. just off the top of my head, and without reading much of the topic:

    • Making dodge actually relevant, because you will be able to see when a big attack is going to happen. In GW2, large attacks were telegraphed by a tiny effect around the mob's weapon, which usually was drowned out/occluded by your own attacks and/or character.
    • Endgame. There wasn't much in GW2, once you hit 80, you kind of just went "what now?". At least for me, there was little motivation.
    • Economy. Oh god, the GW2 economy. Everyone was a crafter, no one really needed stuff from other people. There were hundreds of end-game items on the auction house, so you could buy everything you needed. Add currency purchase on top, and you can buy your way into end-game items without lifting a finger for them. Very demotivating and boring tbh.
    • PvP gearing. I see why they did gear-irrelevant PvP, but it also takes away the carrot of "I want this new pvp season gear", thus makes pvp into more of a gimmick for many people. Having matchmaking take into account skill and gear both would help this.
    • Housing. Seriously, you get a /home instance/ in GW2, which was touted to reflect your choices etc. - And then, after the first few missions, it never is referenced ever again, nor does it have ANY gameplay or story impact at all. Sad. It pretty much is a near static instance where some npcs stand around, and that is all there is to it.
    • Skill layout. You get to pick a weapon, plus 5 addon skills. 90% of the time it felt like there was one weapon for a certain job, and then 5 no-brainer skills to support said weapon (signet of rage for warriors, just an example). W* already does a better job here thankfully.
    That said, most of these points, W* already is superior in, as for the rest, it just takes the appropriate reveals to shed more light onto the systems.
     
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  12. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Wow, pretty strong statement.

    I dislike F2P and B2P as well, it I had to choose I would always go subscription. It's ridiculous to say someone is ridiculous for liking something else. I like the ease of subscription. Every month money is taken from my account and allows me access to EVERYTHING within the game. I never have to worry about anything but logging in and playing the game I purchased. Can't stand buying something while in game and then convert the "gems" to something else. That is not playing the game.

    Having said this, B2P with GW2 wasn't to bad. I didn't need extra bags, extra bank slots or extra characters What came with the game was plenty.
     
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  13. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would much rather pay $0 per month and have access to EVERYTHING in the game, aside from nonsense stuff that I could easily do without. I don't like subs, I put up with them when I have to but they always hurt my enjoyment of the game, and the moment my enjoyment drops even a little I cancel my sub and never come back.

    The closest I would ever want WS to come to having a sub option would be if they allowed you to set up an "auto-debit" for their cash shop, in which every month the game automatically deducts $10 from you and converts it into cash shop credits (for those that can't live without an automatic monthly tithe).

    I definitely do not want to see a system in which players are expected to spend a certain amount in the cash shop every month, or a system in which subscribing offers you perks that you cannot reasonably get for free.
     
  14. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    This would be extremely cool, I agree, but it will never happen. How can a game support itself it it gives you everything you need for no money spent? It can't.

    Look, I know we just disagree with this, so hopefully the hybrid model they talk about will work for us both.
     
  15. Catrike

    Catrike Cupcake-About-Town

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    Underwater Combat

     
  16. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    GW2 does. Almost everything they sell is completely inconsequential. Even the very few items of any importance, such as new character slots and bank slots, can be done without, and are typically one time purchases. I've bought three extra character slots, and two extra bank slots, and I've chosen to buy a few other minor things, but I don't fault ANet for asking, I don't think that the other things I bought "should have been free," I got plenty of stuff for free that I didn't really need any of the stuff I'd bought.

    Just so long as there's nothing the subscription provides that is not also available to B2P players for a reasonable fixed cost.If it's a system like "you can continue to play 95% of the game for free, but there is 5% of the game that you'll never have while not subscribed," then I'm just out of there in a heartbeat.
     
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I think thats an unreasonable position. Carbine is attempting to have a much bigger scope of content that Anet has with Gw2; if you're getting new raids and dungeons (and who knows what else) on a regular basis, I think its reasonable to expect to pay for them.

    The content updates that GW2 does are not comparable to full raids. The vertical progression system of WS is completely different from GW2, there is a lot more places for your character to go in a vertical system and to me that justifies payment.
     
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  18. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    Guild Wars 2 Pros:

    1. Combat fluidity.
    2. Questing system compared to traditional MMOs.
    3. Down ranking when a character enters lower level zone.
    4. Story mode cut scenes --- I want to emphasize on this, so rarely do you get to see your own character in close up, I spend hours fine-tuning each of my character's appearance, to be able to see my character in close up is a BIG PLUS for me.

    Guild Wars 2 Cons:

    1. Lack of end game.
    2. Lack of end game.
    3. Lack of end game.
    4. Lack of... Yeah it's that big of an issue. PvP endgame don't give enough initiatives, simply too casual. Yeah playing for fun is great, but playing for fun AND for fame is way better. WvW was fun for a few days, and then it gets old because there just doesn't seem to be an objective. SPvP too, same as battlegrounds. PvE endgame... What endgame? Once upon a time when Fractal can be pushed to lvl 80 in 25AR gears it was challenging for a short while, but instead of capitalizing on that, ANet decided to stop it. All hardmode dungeons including Arah was on farm for many weeks, zerg fest don't exactly count as a challenge, raid is nowhere to be seen, map completion and farming for legendary are absolutely tedious and not in the least challenging, I was happy to even get the repetitive gaming experience that is fractal --- at least it was challenging at higher levels. But nope, that has to be taken away as well.
     
  19. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Anet was really big on "just playing for fun", but I think they lost sight of the fact that having a challenge is a big part of what makes something fun.
     
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  20. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have never seen a subscription MMO that offers a bigger scope of content than ANet has with GW2, but if Carbine thinks they can do better then I might consider a subscription, but I would definitely hold them to that promise.
     
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