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what can Wildstar learn from Guild Wars 2?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by salluks, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    The problem is, Gw2 is not currently supporting itself. Look at the last earnings call. Down 347% from the previous quarter. Add to that just a month prior Anet claimed that they had no plans of an expac, and NcSoft clearly stated that a new boxed expansion was now on the way during the report. The Gw2 model is not sustainable currently.
     
  2. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    The model that Guild Wars 2 uses is affected by the number of people playing the game remember. If your game isn't great, and it seems that is what the average MMO player thinks about Guild Wars 2, then you won't make much money. By that I mean I don't think Guild Wars 2's payment model is it's problem. You could directly clone World of Warcraft's payment model, slap it on Guild Wars 2 and it'll still be in trouble because it isn't liked/played by enough people.

    To succeed you need a good/popular game as a starting point.

    As for the OP's question. I think restricting the number of abilities a player can use or having a relatively low number of abilities per class is a bad idea. If Guild Wars 2 is anything to go by it makes the game feel dumbed down.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with having bars full of abilities even if you only use some of them once in a blue moon. I think people like that.
     
  3. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I agree, but there is no evidence that says the playerbase has dropped off in any significant way. There is some circumstantial evidence, but none of it is particularly reliable. While there has been some backlash, and surely some have stopped playing, but to what degree is unknown. I would argue that the payment model itself is also atleast partially to blame. There is not enough friction to get people to spend, and to get them to continue to spend. From the drop rate nerf patch you can tell they attempted to rectify that, but after the backlash they chose not to continue down that route.
     
  4. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    The fundamental problem with any game that requires a cash shop for sustenance is that the developers need to make said shop attractive enough to draw customers in to keep the game alive. Selling "inconsequential" items cannot work long term, because players simply will not buy them.

    The alternative is to sell items that are truly desirable, at which point the game has essentially become p2w.
     
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  5. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    Where can i check the last earning calls?
     
  6. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    While this is straying into the whole nixxed payment model debate, there is nothing actually wrong with p2w. All of the issues with it stem entirely from perception, not actualization. Though I agree with the rest of your post. :p

    Sure, let me google that for you. http://www.ncsoft.net/global/ir/earnings.aspx
     
  7. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    You're behind the times. NCSoft mentioned maybe an expansion, but ANet scrapped their plans for an expansion because the gem store was so profitable for them. It works just fine.How profitable is their gem store? Nobody knows for sure, but it's enough that they can keep 300 people employed for the foreseeable future with no alternative revenue in sight, so that seems to me like it's "plenty successful."

    Also wrong. I don't know how these myths get started but GW2 is doing very very well for itself. It isn't liked by SOME very vocal people who really wanted raids and stuff, and not coincidentally a lot of them ended up as Wildstar fans because this is a very similar game with a lot of the features that they personally felt lacking in GW2, but plenty of people like GW2 how it is and continue to play it. Rumors of its death have been greatly exaggerated.

    I think that's kind of dumbed down. Shorter action bars make you weigh your choices more carefully and only slot the abilities that you really need, rather than packing a little of everything.

    It really does. Seriously. People think it doesn't, but it totally does. It's all based on whales. These are people with way more money than sense, and they could afford to play a game with a $100 a month sub and not even care. They will just spend and spend on the cash shop, so even if the vast majority spend nothing, the game still makes money. Having the freeloaders around helps the game too though, because it means that when the whale wants to group, or PvP, or just hang out with other people, there will be plenty of people around. Then there are the people in the middle, who might not buy a ton of stuff, and probably don't spend $120 per year like a classic subscriber would, but they still might spend $20-40 per year on various fun things.

    You might argue that "inconsequential things" will never sell, but I've seen numerous people with the "Miniature Collector" title, which means they've likely bought tons of mini-pet packs, or with the flute, the trumpet, the fancy harvesting tools, etc. none of which is really of any practical value.
     
  8. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Nothing in the link supports any of your assertions in this paragraph.




    Nothing in the game has any practical value. Its all worthless pixels. A title is something desirable within this pixel world, I can understand why someone might pay for it.

    I think its too early to call GW2 a success or failure, it hasn't even been out a year. A few months of decent success is not irrefutable proof that B2p is the best model out there.
     
  9. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    This thread has turned into a payment model discussion...

    Pretty sneaky. I wonder when the mods will catch on. XD
     
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  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I am not behind at all. I am well aware of the posturing and trying to get ahead of the competition. When gem sales for a full quarter are only 79% of pre order sales I would not call that "plenty successful", especially when you look at the marketing blitz that went in to get those presales. Its ok though, please continue to applogize for the Jesus of games.
     
  11. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    My position is that the people who design games with persistent content updates like MMO's are people that have families and bills to pay just like everyone else. Good content isn't conjured from magic fairy dust although it will be debatable what constitutes "good content" but, in an atmosphere where players are increasingly demanding content at a faster pace than say 5 or 6 years ago those designers deserve a consistent income if the quality of that content justifies it.
     
  12. wzrd

    wzrd New Cupcake

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    As far as pvp goes, even though the devs are obviously understaffed in that area they do show a lot of love for it, much more than i can recall blizz devs back when WoW pvp was taking off in the e sports area - having monthly hourly long skype calls with the upper rated pvpers talking about the way things are and being pretty vocal both in game and online. even more technical blogs talking about the responsiveness of combat and how they've refined it, i dont recall many other mmo's showing that sorta love! Just a shame they dont have the man power to get things out faster! :(
     
  13. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    This statement right here makes it difficult to have a serious debate with you.

    EVE
    WoW - Subscription only
    FFXIV

    Lotro
    EQ2 - Freemium and still has subscriptions
    DDO

    Now I think GW2 is solid. I play, primarily WvW. Don't confuse 3 styles of play with scope. All three styles WvW, sPvP, and PvE are fun but lack any real depth. Your character stops progressing at 80, it does not "grow" ever again.

    I think it's impossible for a true B2p or F2P to have real depth and scope unless they are being supported by a cash cow who doesn't need a ROI.
     
  14. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yup, agreed.

    All I am trying to get at is that if your game is good enough I think you can get away with murder with your payment model. When your game was pretty disappointing anyway you are going to struggle no matter what you do.

    Maybe GW2 would have been better with monthly subscriptions, maybe that would have given them the money to expand on the game earlier and keep people interested. Maybe. But I'm not sure. It's a pretty paper thin game, I really don't think it would have made much difference. And I don't think they would have made the money required to completely overhaul the combat and class systems which is what I believe that game is crying out for.

    ArenaNet: So, scrapped the trinity system....

    Players: Cool, what did you replace it with?

    ArenaNet: ...

    Players: ...

    ArenaNet: Scrapped gear grinding too!

    Players: And replaced it with...?

    ArenaNet: ...

    If, for example, GW2 made it so players were almost forced to spend money in the cash shop on a regular basis I believe all they would see is a drop in people playing. If people barely want to play your game anyway then it really doesn't matter what you do to get money from them, they won't give it to you.
     
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  15. Seahorse

    Seahorse New Cupcake

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    What can Wildstar learn from GW2? That jump puzzles are AWESOME!

    Honestly, that was the only thing I had fun doing in gw2... Was pretty disappointed in the game.
     
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  16. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    If they needed money, they would be pushing for a cash infusion in the form of an expansion. That they're basically doubling down on their currently gameplay and cash shop model means that either it's working perfectly well for them, or they're immensely stupid, and I just doubt the latter.

    Maybe not, from a business standpoint, and if it turns out sinking later, then maybe they'd need to adapt or die, fair enough, but there's at least some evidence that it works, and from a consumer perspective it's by far the most comfortable business model I've ever participated in. It's not as oppressive as a monthly sub, and it's not even remotely as nickle and dime as a pure F2P like Marvel Heroes. I can't think of any business model that I'd rather play Wildstorm under, and if they think they can make a profit on that, I really hope they give it a shot.

    I don't mind paying $50-60 up front for this game, I think it's worth that and I think most would agree.

    I would call that plenty successful. It means that 79% of the people who pre-ordered the game spent as much last quarter on trinkets as they did to buy the game outright. I bet Borderlands 2 didn't pull that level of investment from their players.

    Yup, and of that list, at least, none of them havekept pace with GW2. Oh, sure, many of those have more total content now, years after their launch, but GW2 launched with equal or more content than any of them launched with, and has added more free content over the past nine months than any of them added over the same period of time. It might be the type of content some would want, no raids or anything like that, but it is content that plenty of players enjoy very much.

    And the same is true in Vanilla WoW, your character stopped at, what was it, 60? Now, you could pile armor onto that character to get higher stats, but that isn't really "character growth," and really just having armor that gives 56 STR instead of 55 STR is the easiest sort of "content" to produce. A trained monkey could take the stats on T3 armor and upgrade them to T4 status.

    I still have no idea what game you're talking about, because this hypothetical game you posit doesn't seem to have anything to do with GW2 and it's vibrant and active community. You may not like the game, that doesn't mean it isn't a very successful game.
     
  17. Fingers

    Fingers Cupcake-About-Town

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    I bought GW2 and played if for a couple of weeks during which time I became increasingly less enamoured with it. Then at level 14 I just stopped playing it and there it sits.

    Despite shelling out for the game and being impressed with its graphics I just couldn't bring myself to play the game anymore. I didn't play it long enough to draw any firm conclusions about the game, although the combat seemed reasonably good. The game just never captured me.

    I had read that there was very little rewarding to do in endgame so perhaps that's why - so I suppose the only thing that can be taken from that experience is if there going to be nothing left to do once level capped keep quiet about it :laugh:.

    Additionally I didn't get the sense there were any long-term objectives that appealed to me.kind of why invest yourself in a game when you can't see any future with you in it.

    Regards.
     
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  18. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    You cannot draw the the conclusion of stupidity when the gaming industry has a track record of making the long bet based on shifting trends.

    Borderlands 2 is a poor metric as its not service based. Also, that is not how the math works, especially when you are looking at pre release to released. Look at it from another perspective, its barely edging out Aion, and is still getting stomped by Lineage 1.

    More content based on what metric? Adding and taking away the same events with different names are not what many consider to be "new content". You are almost as bad as the people who claimed that Rift gave us the most content the quickest. Gw2 is the McDonalds of the mmo world. Its cheap, and not particularly healthy, and the amount you get for the price is pretty mediocre, but its quick and easy!

    Not at all. Xp/levels are not the only kind of character growth, especially when that character growth is measured by the strength of your character. Afterall, that is essentially all levels are anyway. The Issue that you seem to fail to address is that your character does not become stronger at all once you have capped. As much as you want to exhibit the wannabe supperiority of your chosen game by comparing normal progression to something even a monkey could do, all it really does is show how little you understand how progression works.

    Successful by what metric? Financially it still has not made back what it cost to make. You can argue successful because its fun, but there were players who enjoyed Black and White too, so that is not exactly much of a benchmark. You can argue number of players, but you have no solid numbers and Playerone's and I have anecdotal evidence that is contrary to yours.
     
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  19. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Or a third option: the cash shop isn't working with the model they had, so they are switching to a more rapid update cycle to try and draw more people in and change that. I don't know if that's true, the point is that they haven't stated anything either way, so anyone can really draw any conclusion they want from vaguely defined points in a article.

    I really don't see all the GW2 launch content your talking about. GW2 has a long list of their highly marketed 'features', like personal story, dynamic questing, mini games etc, but in reality those things did not provide as much gameplay (let alone fun) that they were hyped up to provide. They did have WvW which was a decent feature, but if we're talking launch than even WvW wasn't great at that time due to the culling issues. I would argue that with Molten Core, Onyxia, UBRS, Scholomance and Stratholme alone, WoW had more total hours of content than GW2 did at launch.

    That is most definitely character growth, the very definition of it actually. When you gain levels, all you are really doing is growing in power. Gear progression is a continuation of that. A trained monkey could not complete the raid content required to upgrade your tier, as that stuff actually took a measure of skill and effort (aka content).
     
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  20. Scarzi

    Scarzi Cupcake-About-Town

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    be a subscription, I have no idea why companies keep flocking to cash shops. As a gamer, I very much enjoy a level playing field for everyone, thus I can just be better then them at the game and its from learning the game, not paying to win. Every "f2p" I have played always leads to pay to win, get bored and leave...which works for upfront dollar value but I find no one sticks around. Where as subscription base, players tend to stay around for a long time. I could care less if there is a cash shop for cosmetics, but as soon as cash items mess with stats its destined to flop or have a low player base.
     

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