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what can Wildstar learn from Guild Wars 2?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by salluks, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. pinmouse

    pinmouse New Cupcake

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    One of the things that I hated so much about GW2 was the downscaling of my character when in lower zones. It's supposed to make old zones revisitable. But all it did was make me never feel powerful. You're the same thing wherever you go, unless you're too low level for a place... then you're toast.

    So they can learn that if I put a bunch of time and effort into my character... make sure he feels powerful!
     
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  2. Screenager

    Screenager Cupcake-About-Town

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    ok lets hold up on bashing the payment model for 2 minutes.... sales for one quarter were down mostly due to box sales drop off (if I remember the reports correctly) (as an aside are we forgetting the year on year increase form the last end of year anyhow in ncsofts income?)

    we're all making guesses on the success or not of the cash shop without having the metric breakdown of the income from it directly. Really unless you've got the breakdown of that income then all this cash shop bashing or support is just supposition?
     
  3. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    We can't predict where GW2's cash shop model will lead them, but you are arguing that it is failing them NOW, and we just can't see it from out here. My position is that if it were failing them NOW, then they would not be doubling down on it as they are, therefore I think the more reasonable assumption is that it's working for them well within their expectations of profit for the game, at the very least for now.

    Those games are very popular overseas, and beat out plenty of still active western games.

    More content based on more content. More loot added, more dungeons added, more zones added, more guests added, more of pretty much everything. It may not be the sort of content that some players would prefer that they add, but the quantity and quality of it is quite unarguable.

    Why not? They're more things to do as you go, and many of them will be reappearing later, alongside newer still content. For example the recently removed Molten Forge and Aetherblade Retreat will be returning as Fractals in the fall, and the Halloween and Wintersday events will be returning with more upgrades.

    How many zones and dungeons did WoW add within their first year, because so far GW2 has added two zones, nine dungeons (and a few mini dungeons), and smaller expansions to several other portions of the game world.

    If the character does not change, it is not growth. Putting on stronger armor may make you stronger, but it is in no way character growth, it is gearing. Character growth is internal to the character.

    Where have you seen that reported? Even if true, MMOs are a long term project, and if it did not make back it's budget in the first nine months then that is not shocking. TOR probably hasn't made back even a quarter of its budget and doesn't look on track to. So long as it's making enough money to keep the game in full development (as opposed to many games that massively slash their staffing within the first few months), I consider GW2 to be financially successful, for the time being, at least.

    What is your anecdotal evidence. Please don't tell me it's because you and your friends have quit because who cares about that? My evidence is that I've been playing since launch, they have not done a server consolidation (as many other games I've played have done within the first six months), and yet the servers are still packed with people at all hours. We still get overflows during the launch of new content, we still have enough people showing up for mundane world events to cause visible culling, we still have occasional queues for WvW on even my fairly blase-about-WvW server, it's still plenty easy to find people wanting to run dungeons at any hour fo the day, to the point that I've never had to wait for more than fifteen minutes to form a group, and often find one in less than thirty seconds, so by all measure they have "plenty" of people populating the game servers, and that's better than most MMOs can claim nine months in.

    I honestly don't see how that would even work to their benefit, and ultimately it would be a self-defeating process, since it would mean doing exactly what the community would be telling them doesn't work. It makes no sense.

    You're entitled to your opinion, but you can't claim they didn't provide a massive world at launch. They had five starting zones when most launch with 2-4, 20 other adventuring zones (not counting the six cities), eight large dungeons with four total overhaul variations each, and of course dozens upon dozens of Story missions, a half dozen or more "mini-dungeons," something like 15-20 jump puzzles of various complexity, and hundreds of dynamic events. It is a lot of content. You can choose to skip most of it if you like, you can choose to not enjoy it, but you cannot claim it doesn't exist.

    How long would it take you to do all of those in a row, assuming you were fully geared out and knew all the moves so you completed each without a single failure? I do not consider "repeating due to wipe" to be "additional content."

    If all you are gaining is power when you level then that isn't character growth either. Character growth is when you gain new capabilities, like new powers and new traits, things that cause you to play differently than you did before, not just slightly more effectively. If all you are today is who you were yesterday, only +1, then you're not really much different from who you were yesterday.

    I meant the effort of implementing it. It's just basic arithmetic, you take all the numbers and +1 to each of them or so.

    I still feel crazy powerful in lower level zones. It's not "oneshot anything with my weakest attacks" power, but it's still very impressive feeling to be able to take on massive packs of enemies that would have squashed me at appropriate level.
     
  4. Metasine

    Metasine New Cupcake

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    I think the most unsuccessful part of the Guild Wars 2 is the semi-progression model that is currently in game. They implemented a gear system in the game (there was no gear in Guild Wars 1) and it seems like it was only half thought out. You get gear while leveling, and then some dungeons pieces, but then it just stops. I wish that ArenaNet would have decided to fully implement a continuous gear based progression system, or not gear at all (a la Guild Wars 1). They went with something in between, and most players I know don't really like it.

    My other big issue is the pvp or lack of pvp. Guild Wars 1 was in my opinion, the best online RPG pvp game because of the balance and depth of options available. By the end of the game we had GvG, HA, AB, RA, TA, HB's, and Co-Op missions. It just WvW and a poorly thought out team pvp scenario. These were my biggest disappointments.
     
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  5. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    WoW launched with 29 dungeons and 43 different zones. Both games have questing, GW2 tweaks it a little bit with "Dynamic Questing", but its not dramatically more content. Honestly the dungeons and raids alone from WoW provide far more hours of content that anything in GW2. GW2 has content, yes. WoW just had a lot more.

    It makes perfect sense. The game needs the cash shop to generate revenue, and they need people actively playing the game in order for the cash shop to be used. Frequent updates are a great way to make sure people keep playing your game and increases the chance they will use the cash shop.

    That is not a fair comparison, because that is what challenging content is. Learning, improving, tweaking, practicing, that is all most definitely a part of playing hard content. By your logic, GW2 jumping puzzles should not be considered true "additional content" since all the time spent learning how to do it correctly and all your falls down to the ground while learning are thrown out the window.

    It's kind of funny you are arguing WoW doesn't have character progression at cap when you're a fan of GW2; a game that features and promotes cosmetic progression, the ultimate "meaningless" character growth. You have a very narrow view of character progression, and one that most would not agree with. And no, adding +1 stat to something is not hard. But it is hard to complete the content required to get that +1 stat.
     
  6. Zero713

    Zero713 Cupcake

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    I have a different take on GW 2 than most posters. I did not play PVE, only leveled some, I didn't even make it to the first dungeon, and the only thing I played the game for was casual sPVP.

    I really enjoyed sPVP in guild wars. I thought PVP and character classes were balanced pretty well. I really thought that combat was based on skill with how the game handled gear. I liked the variety in sPVP maps, some of the pve elements added a fun strategy element, and allowed skilled players in small groups to counter zergs.

    What was really nice was the ability to create a new character, and instantly jump into pvp with your account bound rank. All my play time and points allowed me to get bad ass cosmetic armor for whatever class I felt like playing. I think sPVP was great for pick up and play, but the pvp ranks come to a terrible crawl in the mid levels and dwarfs any feeling of progression.

    Like I said I never participated in pve, wvw, just SPvP, and from that aspect, combat and classes felt balanced, combat was skill based, and any class I played I always felt like I had a fair chance to beat any other class.
     
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  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Many companies have the exact record of doing just that. Look at Apple in the mid 90's for example. Heck, look at Funcom since 2000! Corperate "wisdom" is a strange thing.

    Lineage, yes. It is very much the WoW of the east. Aion though is pretty mediocre over there too. It has a diehard fanbase who like to spend on it, but that base is not particularly large. If anything as John pointed out this strategy is just a way to get more people to log on more, which increases the chance they will use the shop.

    Apparently you do not know the meaning of the word "new".
    new

    /n(y)o͞o/
    Adjective
    Not existing before; made, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time: "new crop varieties".

    That does not apply to content that you have already played and they have chosen to take away and give back to you. As for "more content" I can make 1000 quests that read "Go kill me a critter!" and that critter only has a single hp and is placed 5 feet away from the quest giver then that is clearly not more content than a game like WoW that only launched with 600 quests that made you actually do stuff. Also quality is clearly arguable. Fractals suck balls. Many of them are easily soloable for certain classes because yanking out the trinity was a stupid decision.

    Numbers are meaningless without context.

    Not really no. In a normal mmo you may (may is very much an issue) be givin tools that show actual character growth, as in character's switching allegiances, showing resolve through adversity, having actual choices to make that have real impacts on ones "character". The problem is this is traditionally seen as the strength of your avatar as the story is really not there on a fundemental level. While you may want to argue that "gearing" is not growth because its not internal, there is no internal to your character. The only way you can traditionally measure (and a reason many play rpg's in the first place, thanks Japan!) is through character power. Gear rather clearly changes how strong your character is, no different than levels, just in a different way.



    Of course you believe its successful. You either do not know how, or choose not to see the reality of your gaming Nirvana. It has not been disclosed how much the marketing bonanza cost, but you can draw a pretty decent conclusion by what has been spent on similar titles. We have the full reports of what it cost to make, and how much money has been attributed to it. On top of which that earnings call in May only attributed enough to Gw2 to cover only a little more than it costs to run that 300 man team you were bragging about earlier. It points even more to them doubling down on 2 week releases to bring in more players to get that money flowing again.

    Naw, I still have friends that play occasionally, as do I. I play on Henge of Denravi and its a ghost town. All of those things you see I do not, at all. Well, outside of the overflow at new content, but every game I have played has been that way. Remember the dead Swtor servers that went to queues when the Rakdos plague hit? I mean that is clearly a sign that the game is not in danger right?

    Its the same thing that many f2p games do. Not many people spend, but they keep you coming back until you do. This is why I love science and metrics. Things that "feel" wrong or "don't make sense" get proven to be how things actually are all the time.

    Yes, he and I both can make that claim. The world is not particularly big, especially with how they decided to do travel. On top of which "Massive" dungeons? Really? 15 minutes to clear a dungeon is mnassive now? Seriously? /sigh You are really taking fanboyism to a new hight.

    Thats the point though, you do not start off fully geared and knowing everything. There is that whole "growth" thing that you seem to believe does not exist.This is why Fractals are such a joke in general. There is nothing new to learn. You enter each and every one with the same strategy and walk out the victor with your shiny new stuff. The only times you wipe is if you do something stupid, not because anything did something you did not expect. This is exactly why I compared it to McDonalds earlier. Its Fast Food Gaming at its worst (or best, if you like fast food).

    Yeah, your definition is different from the rest of the planets.

    Please, show me a teir that just +some numbers to stats and called it a day. The playerbase would rebel, kinda like how many have with Gw2.

    What? You outlevel everything so quickly that the entire game feels that way. Especially with how a ton of the pve is centered around 100% zones. By the time you get even 50% you are higher level than the zone, its pretty sad.
     
  8. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry man, Occam's Razor. When we get some evidence that GW2 is crashing (like when they fire a bunch of people or drastically change their business model or something like TOR or TSW or DCUO or CO, etc. have done) then I'll buy that they are in trouble, but until then, I don't see any evidence for it other than a few malcontent's wishing that they would be "punished" for not making the game those people wanted them to make.

    I'm not counting that as new content when they do, but so far they haven't done any of that yet, and while they've announced that they will be returning older content at a later date, such as the holiday events, they claim they will be tweaking them, AND adding other new content over the same periods, since much of the holiday content is done. For example they already "Christmassed up" Lion's Arch, so they don't need environment teams on that this year and those guys can be working on other projects. I'm not counting the return of the holidays as completely "new" content, but there's still plenty of new content being added on a regular basis.

    I played WoW at launch, and I remember most of the quests as being "Go kill me a critter!" The only difference was a liberal use of floating golden punctuation.

    So. . . less than two zones and nine dungeons then?

    Gear doesn't change your character at all, it just makes them capable of more. It's like claiming that a new car changes who you are as a person, it's ridiculous.

    Switch over to Crystal Desert then, it's one of the lighter population servers but it's plenty sell populated. The game does have an issue with some zones, ones with no new content going on and no major world events, dipping into very low populations, but this doesn't really surprise me, as once players have done those once they don't have a huge reason to come back. That's something I like about the Living Story though, since between that and the dailies, they give players reasons to revisit these areas. At the moment all the action seems to be in the starter zones, Fields of Ruin, Labyrinthian Cliffs, and Frostgorge Sound, but that rotates around a bit as new objectives are added.

    The only dungeon I've ever cleared in 15 minutes is CoF Path 1, and that takes knowing what you're doing. Most of the other 31 dungeons in the game take a half hour or more, some up to an hour. And yes, their game world is pretty huge. It takes as long to jog across as vanilla WoW did, at the very least.

    Like I said, grinding isn't content. Could ANet have made it so that each of their existing dungeons granted you a different tier of gear, so that you'd need to grind out Catabombs tokens until you had a full set of Ascalon gear before even attempting Caudecus's Manor, and so on? Sure they could have, but that wouldn't be adding even a tiny bit of "content" to the game, it just would have made their existing content more of a grind. Content is not "time to complete," regardless of pacing, content is the amount of material that is placed in the world. The quantity of content is like the number of words in a book, it remains a fixed amount whether it takes you months to finish the book or whether you speed read it over a weekend, if it's ten thousand words it's ten thousand words.

    I don't follow WoW, you understand, but I did some Googling, and here's the only difference I see between what is listed as "T5" Warlock armor and "T6" Warlock armor:
    T5: 80 47 415 31 0 1-1
    T6: 82 54 464 32 16 1-1
    =: +2 +7 +49 +1 +16

    Now, each set did have a set bonus that applied some buff when you had two and then four pieces of it, but these were fairly standard buffs, and GW2 armors offer much more customization there.
     
  9. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    As someone who's in or around Karazhan weekly, your memories of it are... colorful to say the least ;)

    Guild Wars 2 does a great job of getting high level and low level players to mingle, and make old content continue to be relevant. It definitely encourages players of different experience levels to play together and entices you to replay areas to see different phases of events.

    Definite lack of endgame "carrot" incentive to dangle for players. Good in that you can be there and caught up and not be tiers and tiers behind, bad because why get there or keep playing? But I have the incentive to log in every few days to do the newer events and content they've been launching. It's good, but very short and not hard at all other than the jumping/climbing elements. I see this turning off traditional MMO players, but I like it enough to revisit again and again. It's not my #1 MMO for sure.
     
  10. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Those are TBC era tier sets, specifically some of the most mundane set bonuses (the wings made up for it). Even though the set bonuses were mundane the stat difference between the sets in TBC made different specs ideal at different points in the expansion (Deep Affliction, Fire Destro, 29/21/11, Shadow Destro). The key is how the specs, stats, and set bonuses all work together to shift priorities and the ideal spec, which changes your gameplay and capabilities. Sure 30 more haste doesn't look significant on its own, but if it gets you over a breakpoint to be able to fit another spell into your rotation, or allow you to full channel a spell instead of clipping it, or makes a spell that you didn't use before viable, then you are changing the capabilities of your character through gear.

    The reason gear is used in this way is that it is easier and more accepted to "reset" and easier to provide multiple avenues for players to catch up. This is critical in verticle progression games. If all progression is tied to the character, then, once the game is a year or two old, you have a massive barrier to entry for new players. It also allows flexibility in tailoring your character as needed. Essentially it works.
     
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  11. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    Im trying to understand why you guys are trying to racionalize with this Ohoni dude. I noticed he is completely biased and delusional when arguing over nobrainer and obvious stuff.
    And i actually chuckled after reading "massive dungeons" and "quality updates" in GW2.

    He wont accept reallity anyway, why insist? let it go.
     
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  12. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Not making holiday events completely about gambling on lockboxes.
    Not making content role free, so it becomes a large unorganized mess with barely any challenge.

    Not making a large speech about how there shouldn't be a gear progression only to realize a few months later how wrong you are about removing that core pillar from an RPG and adding it back in with ascendant gear.

    Not putting WvW on the backburner while a large group of the population is invested in it, yet it being the last pvp form to actually receive some sort of a progression system for participants.

    Oh, I could go on for a while here as they did a lot of goofs by being blinded by fanboy feedback :)
     
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  13. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    Literally nothing in GW2 is challenging. Dungeons are not challenging (quite the contrary), quests are not challenging, story quests are not challenging.
    The hardest thing i found in GW2 was a few jump puzzles.

    No challenge... no loot... no deep lore.... what ecxatly keeps a serious player in GW2? The only reason i still play it is because i have a pvp group.

    Thats what WS have to learn with GW2.... and of course, sell junk button.
     
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  14. Valento

    Valento Cupcake

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    Issues:
    - Lack of endgame is frustrating, got even casual friends saying it's stupid to redo stuff and explore the whole world again and again and again...
    - Progression IS needed, even if it's skin-based, just HAVE SOMETHING instead of stupid Living Story that's temporary and will make many people feel like they've missed huge part of the game.
    - Please, for God's sake, spend as many hours as needed until WS dungeons are awesome and not faceroll, every.single.dungeon in GW2 is faceroll (CoF p1 is farmable in 6min.), they should've known that by choosing to step away from holy trinity they'd have to study intensively how to create challenges to fit the absence of traditional roles, AND their proposed combat.
    - If this game is to separate PvP from PvE just like GW2, SPLIT THEM SKILLZ FOR GOD! So balancing stuff in PvP doesn't break PvE. Please, make combat in WS have DEPTH and not an overly simplified mix of skill+passive, this is the base that every game has, make so that we have more complex stuff on top of that.

    Good things:
    - Character-environment, and character interaction ANIMATIONS are top, they feel fluid and mimics reality perfectly despite some annoying bugs, learn from that.
    - Combat feels fluid, dodge is a nice feature, take some time to polish this and you'll have people fall in love with it.
    - Be B2P. :D

    @Edit
    One side note. Saying GW2 doesn't have lore is pure ignorance, they've released 3 books if I'm not wrong, Guild Wars 1 happened 250 years before Guild Wars 2, the first game featured a lot of in-depth lore filled with good stuff, factions wars, conflict with otherworldly beings (or gods), etc, the second game is still shy when it comes to lore but has an amazing potential to grow. Ree Soesbee is a totally awesome writer.
     
  15. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    Potential? yes . But GW2 dont really do a good job at making you care about lore nor deliver lore to you in interesting ways.
     
  16. Valento

    Valento Cupcake

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    I agree with that, but Guild Wars universe has lot of lore already from the first game and much more to be added, saying "GW2 doesn't have lore" is plain ignorance.
     
  17. Johnhandcock

    Johnhandcock Cupcake

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    People rip on GW2 without any thought as to what the game is. It is a buy to play game. They made almost all their money from initial sales. It was extremely fun at the start to keep buzz and get the word out to people to buy the game. There was no end game, because they didn't want an end game. End game is a huge development cost, and by the time players get to it the positive buzz will have already done it's magic with sales. Besides, what incentive do they have to keep people playing their free game? A few shop sales? That might yield some income, but not a lot. GW2 made money, and that was their sole intent.

    I wouldn't even call GW2 a real MMO. The two games are completely different. So, what is there to learn? I guess they should learn not to make a game just to make a profit, but make a game that people want to continue to play. That is the only way to get people to pay monthly fees.
     
  18. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    I think you missunderstood me, im not arguing that Guild Wars universe is not lore rich.
     
  19. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Meh. +1, +2, same diff.

    I'm not opposed to gear being used to modify your build, I just don't get the holy reverence some of you have for it as the be-all and end-all of all things great and small in this world. It's just. . . whatever.

    Seriously though, if GW2 wanted to do that, they could have, in a heartbeat.They could effortlessly have made it so that players in level 80 exotic armor could barely have enough stats piled up to manage their way through, and sloooowly earn themselves a full set of Ascalon armor. Then they could have made it so that Caudecus Manor would be impossible to complete without the stats provided by a full set of Ascalon armor, but once you managed to slog through it a few hundred times you'd have enough armor to stand a ghost's chance in Twilight Arbor. It's not hard to do, it's basic math, you just up the damage on all the enemies, up the stats on successive tiers of armor to compensate, and suddenly "difficulty!" Suddenly GW2 would have had an "endgame" that would have taken "hardcore" players a year or more to grind their way through.

    Personally I applaud them for making the game fun instead.

    Lol, we got the soul of objectivity here.

    Fun.
     
  20. Johnhandcock

    Johnhandcock Cupcake

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    You can't have difficulty and fun? News to me and the other 20 or so million people who played WoW.
     

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