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WildStar Wednesday - Crossing the Streams

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Yakzan, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Dargenus

    Dargenus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes. They make it by playing games that support their preferred gameplay. Games that go for instant gratification get filled with that type of people, hindering socialization.

    To imply that the game's structure is not relevant toward how much people socialize is completely delusional and means you do not understand game design. Mechanics differences are what make SWG a social game and make Modern WoW a "sit in city and queue all day" game, or what makes EVE so corporation-bound while making games like Rift solo games.

    A game needs to promote grouping to actually have any socialization besides that forced by guilds and the "hi, bye" you see in dungeon instances. Not having cross-server LFG, or LFG at all, is one of such important features. So are group quests. So is game difficulty. So is a crafting interconnectivity.

    Gamers are efficient. If you don't make grouping efficient, it will not occur.
    Alverad, Fuzedknight, John and 2 others like this.
  2. Vyril

    Vyril Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think you're being over sensitive if you're getting upset about generalizations. Take a deep breath and relax.
  3. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Calling people "anti-social" if they want to opt out of cross realm activitys, is stepping it out of the line. Call it minority, call it smaller group of players but call it "anti social" and I have to wonder if people have lost perspective of their project, the fact that they are still making game for the customers.

    This or maybe "Obvious" sarcasm has escaped me, it wouldn´t be the first time.

    Little quote from our belowed wikipedia;

    Dargenus likes this.
  4. Vyril

    Vyril Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hear ya man, but you should know that it wasn't meant to be the literal meaning. The use of anti-social has lost a lot of true definition in the past couple decades. I read it as a person that chooses not to interact with many.

    Medical definition and societal definition are definitely different.

    anti-social in a gaming world would be more of a solo player.

    anti-social in RL might be more towards your previous statement.
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  5. silvershadez

    silvershadez Cupcake

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    Did they announce yet if EU and US can play together or if we will get separated again?
  6. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    No announcement I'm aware of but we will probably remain segregated.
  7. nra

    nra Cupcake

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    Sadly I am not delusional, but you could have been right. Next time maybe!

    You make a fine note on how different games playout, but you and me both know that this was not the topic we were discussing.
    On the topic "a LFG tool provides an excuse to do bare minimum socialization" I will simply recite myself and say that socialization is a choice made by each and everyone of us.
    I will now also append to that statement with this.
    There are also people out there who do NOT want to socialize, who wish to mostly solo and every now and then go through group content and simply think of the rest of the players as AI driven NPCs.
    Without the tool you would force these people to socialize. But as you clearly are on the socializing side I assume you do not mind them.
    I believe Carbine is making this tool as versatile as it should be, with the "my realm only" option included.

    I for one have made tons of friends and relations through World of Warcrafts cross-realm system.
    A feature promoted with the cross-realm chatting system (and what we can assume to be true, cross-realm friends)

    How did I make these friends?
    I socialized and people who wanted to socialize responded.
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.
  8. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I also want to add to this.

    I've been able to encounter and "socialize" in a friendly manner with several people I've met in LFD where we told all sorts of stories, laughed off mistakes we made inside the run, communicated boss mechanics and helped unfamiliar players find their footing in fights, and just got to know people better whether they be from my server or not (mostly they were x-realm). A lot of this happened in predominantly challenging dungeons that forced even skilled players to be on their toes.

    In short, I learned that it wasn't the tool that made people like this. I met plenty of awful drama queens, loot ninjas, and rage-quitters throughout my years prior to LFD. Dungeon finders actually helped mitigate the losses of these people in groups so that we could complete our run without forcing us to abandon the run midway through. I even queued up several times with people that I happened to meet through LFD because we enjoyed each other's company. It is all about people's attitudes, not some maligned tool.

    This is what I mean by community-minded players standing up and reaching out. Stop using tools as an excuse to let the "community" rot. Stop complaining about and arguing with the nasty people you meet in LFD, otherwise you become them and drag the community down right along with it. Be a good person regardless of what's in front of you. That's how you grow community: through YOUR OWN actions. Socialization is a conscious choice.


    Don't give me the "tools dissuade socialization" argument because they don't. Spamming chat channels to find groups isn't socialization; it's an advertisement. In fact, Carbine is giving us MORE tools to socialize with more people, including establishing cross-server relationships. Or are we against communicating with other servers because "they're not us" or "not a part of the 'server community'"?

    Get over this cross-server bigotry many of you have. What's so horrible about people from other servers? What makes them somehow inferior? Are we really trying to foster such vile attitudes towards players from different servers? No wonder MMO communities have fallen apart. It's because people's hearts are rotten to the core.
    nra, SiegaPlays and Inukeu like this.
  9. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I am hoping the cross-relm feature is also cross region.

    It was really annoying in GW2 where the EU and NA were kept apart. Some people had 2 accounts to play on both regions but you can't do that in a sub game.

    I do have friends planning on playing on an NA server and I would like the option of playing with them sometime even though I plan on rolling on an EU server.

    Also as siegaPlays mentioned I hope circles are cross-relm as well (cross-region is possible)

    I welcome this news. I like the guesting and cross-server pvp in GW2 and I am glad others are using it in their game as well.
  10. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I think the mistake people like yourself make is that you have taken an extremely narrow view of what it means to "socialize". You are correct that there is no reason you can't strike up a conversation in a LFD group, and perhaps make friendships there, albeit friendships that do not allow you to actually play with one another. But I think what people really are talking about when they say "socialize" is "community". A server community where you know the people around you that you're playing with, and you also know the people you aren't playing with. All the little nuances that make a server feel unique: rivalries between guilds, rivalries between players, the guy who is always organizing pugs, the guy doing world events, knowing your local crafters and the guys who farm, the guy who has that rare recipe...it may sound like small things but it goes along way towards making the game a lot more immersive by populating the game world with an actual human community, not just random people who happen to play anonymously next to each other.

    Any chat program or lobby game will allow you to chat with a random stranger like LFD does; to me that is a very poor use of multimillion dollar MMO.
  11. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    More likely the difference here is not the people, its that LFD content is dramatically easier, an issue that I thought might be a major problem with WS challenging dungeons. But now that I realize WS is in fact a casual carebear game that caters to the mass mainstream, I have little doubt that "challenging dungeons" was simply a marketing buzzword to get actual gamers interested in the title to generate some hype. Im guessing WS dungeons will be more in the vein of WoW when all is said and done; honestly I seriously doubt its possible to have hard content with a x-realm LFD tool, Blizzard has stated that to be true about their game.
  12. Grytswyrm

    Grytswyrm Cupcake

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    It's just as likely that "hard" is used as a buzzword as that it's used to actually mean hard in my opinion. There are a lot of people on these forums that enjoy the game in a different way than I do, which is fine, but there is absolutely no way to know how hard the game will be.

    When I see people talk about the 5 man video it's comical how they try to extract difficulty from that. Even the first boss, for example, can have the same mechanics balanced in a number of different ways. The skill he uses where multiple telegraphs in circles around. Are they one hit kill? Do they deal 75% damage and your healer has to top you up before the next one? Or do they do about 20% damage and the healer has multiple rounds of it to top you off? Good players will never get hit, so this ability will never affect them, but it will serve as either a hard gate, a medium gate, or a soft gate to most players.

    I'm leaving myself open to wether or not I stick around until I see the first month of gameplay first hand. It will either be easy or hard, but it looks like it has fun mechanics. I just hope the difficulty is there to support it or I won't resub a single time.
    Roadblock and Xlugon Pyro like this.
  13. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I wouldn't take a set of developers' feedback on a system as the gospel, not matter how successful their game was at any point in history. It takes a more discerning eye to look beyond the immediate circumstances of a feature to see the pros and cons. There are other factors that weigh in on the effectiveness of a LFD tool and one of the first ones we can look at is the fact that this is an entirely new game, no matter how many similarities to other games it has.

    I can't see how LFD can't work with challenging dungeons in a new game. Bad players will cry for nerfs with or without LFD in place. It's up to the devs to determine what feedback is worth addressing.
  14. nra

    nra Cupcake

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    You clearly have some magical ability to know false facts about people.
    My view is not narrow. However the topic being discussed was rather narrow.

    Now on your topic, I can not see a LFG-tool ever being the sole cause of all those community socialising aspects vanishing into thin air.
    They will all be there.
  15. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Just a tip, its a lot easier to have a conversation if you don't delete the quote you are responding to.

    You're right that those community aspects won't vanish, they will just never exist at all in this game. Honestly, how do you get to know anyone on your own server when all your group content is done by pushing a button that pairs you with x-realm strangers? Simply saying "it just wont happen" is hardly a convincing argument.
  16. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I'll tell you how. Random, anonymous matchmaking for dungeons is a zero accountability system. If you suck, you can hide behind the shelter of anonymity the LFD tool provides; you have no personal reputation at stake that would motivate you to improve your play and work with your group to beat the dungeons. If your group is struggling or you yourself get kicked due to awful play, you can simply que up again and get a fresh group that doesn't know you're a bad player who doesn't take the time to learn encounters or learn his class.

    Since forming a group requires absolutely zero effort on the part of a player, they are less invested in making sure the group stays together and works. Did the LFD tool match you with an undergeared tank or healer, or a couple noob players? No problem, just drop group, push a button and have the game find a new group for you. If that scenario took place in a non-LFD game, you would be labeling yourself as a bad apple within your server and severely hurting your chances of getting people to group with you in the future. That kind of accountability keeps people in line and helps groups stick together. You don't want to get the label of "the guy who leaves at the first sign of trouble."

    LFD tools promote "leaving at the first sign of trouble," because there is very little penalty for doing so. The solution to preventing groups from constantly falling apart is to make content so ridiculously easy that it's virtually impossible to fail regardless of how poorly everyone plays.
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  17. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Initially I gave this post a "like", but after thinking some more about it I had to hit the "unlike" button.

    In my early MMO days I did have that Server Pride<tm> and felt good when people would ask me to heal their hard dungeon or raid runs. But gaming has changed a lot in the past 13 years, especially in the last 4 years or so since LFD-type tools have been around.

    Being married with a young child, I just don't have the time to wait for that "perfect group" to form. I currently don't have set hours to play; I might be lucky to even get one hour to play some days. This would hinder me from finding a steady group of people to play with on my chosen server. So LFD is great when I want to get my 30min - 1 hour of play time.

    For those who really want the server community, Carbine is providing the checkbox to only pool players from your server when you use LFD. So why is this even a thing? Sounds like everyone gets what they want out of this system.

    Those who want the quick fix can LFD.

    Those who want server community can seek out like-minded people on their server during questing, chat channels, etc. If their group is missing a few people, then use LFD and only take players from your server. This will in-turn add to your server community as you find good players.
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.
  18. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Except that WildStar will be incorporating deserter debuffs to prevent this. Some form of cooldown existed in Blizzard as well but they never properly tuned it similar to vote kick.

    You forget to realize that if dungeons stay hard and bad players constantly get kicked for not being able to meet the dungeon's standards, they will come to a few realizations. They will realize that the problem might be them, whether it be their skill, their gear, their attitude, or any combination of the three and they will fix the problem so that they can actually do the content without it being nerfed to their level. If they choose not to fix themselves, they'll either find a guild that can carry their suckishness, avoid instanced content because they keep getting kicked, or quit the game entirely.

    Anonymity is not that advantageous as you make it out to be. In the short term, your scenario may be true, but let's be honest; rude, degenerate people aren't liked by anyone. Even if they are not known because of a greater pool of players, their behavior will take it's toll when they can't efficiently tackle content because they're always breaking up groups.

    The problem isn't LFD, plain and simple. Make punishments for leaving LFD groups much greater, don't limit content to the lowest common denominator, and the weeds will be diminished. Besides, taking away LFD wouldn't get rid of the bad apples or even reduce their behavior in groups.
  19. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Or they will whine and complain until content is nerfed. And if any significant number of people are quitting the game due to content being too 'hard', you can bet that NCsoft will be quick to do whatever it takes to make them happy to keep the money rolling in.

    That last sentence makes me wonder if you've ever played a game that had a real server community, because I can assure you that your server reputation most definitely does affect how people act in groups. I agree that if Carbine does all those things you said about punishment and not dumbing it down that it could work; I just have zero faith that that will happen. Carbine is showing themselves to be extremely thin skinned, already caving in to very minor complaints from the beta.

    And that is precisely my problem with the tool. Its great for people like yourself who just want a casual dungeon run that you can complete quickly without much hassle. But that convenience comes at the expense of the depth and complexity that a more serious gamer might enjoy in his dungeon run. My thing is, there is already so many games that cater to players like yourself. WoW and GW2 are catered directly at players like you; why does WS have to be exactly the same?

    I'll just quote myself from earlier in this thread to answer why the same sever check box is a joke:
    On top of that, even if the tool was actually viable, its still not a community when half the people are playing xrealm and not at all connected with the rest of their server.
  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    This is going nowhere. -_-

    Guess I should know better not to engage in discussions on certain topics with certain people. :p

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