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WildStar Wednesday - State of the Beta

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Yakzan, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, the problem is it's a small issue which will greatly effect how the community evolves. The implementations they're putting in seem to allow players to help each other out, and make players more likely to group and start forming communities. If you build a game which cultivates a lot of connectedness in the community, then the community will be "better." If you're constantly going out and attacking things, and you're about to die, and someone else comes along and helps you kill it, that's a good connection. Even if someone helps you kill things faster, that's a neutral or good connection, which will probably get you to group with them.

    So, the fix will just take time to fix, they already have a plan of action for it, but they have to go implement it throughout the entire game. Without the new system in place, beta testing seems a bit moot, as they would just be testing that specific quests work (which 90% of them are similar to quests seen in lower levels so, this isn't very helpful). The milestone change on the other hand has to feel like you're helping make decisions that progress your character from level 1, so it's more of a big picture progression the player feels with their character.

    So the two changes have a lot to do with community building, and with immersion and how connected a player is with their character.
  2. Zaelesis

    Zaelesis New Cupcake

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    Yes but where is the snap group? Personally, i play very odd hours and sometimes very random time blocks all together. Finding a group for something needs to be simple if they hope to implement that system.

    I am hoping that groups will get an overall bonus when it comes to leveling (a flat overall exp bonus is one example, however simple it may be) to truly make it worth while to get a group together.

    The whole solo vrs. group argument makes me think back to ff11 where in order to level steadily past level 10, you had to have a group. In fact people would form static leveling groups in order to do this on a consistent basis. Now i dont believe anyone would do that again but without a very visible benefit to groups, the majority of people just wont care. Too much effort to form the group for a single or handful of quests then what the perceived reward is.
  3. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    Read it again. It clearly says that individual quest progress will be slower in a group.
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, grouping will happen more organically, because you're rewarded for helping someone outside of your group. This means you'll be on a quest, start killing the same mob as someone else, see them a couple times, think "Hey, I should group with them, to reduce our competition and increase our gains" and then you send a request. I don't think it's necessary to make organized groups really, unless you want to do something in particular.

    We saw this a lot at the release of MoP with WoW, in that players would often go out, and start questing in an area alone, and then be in competition with someone on mobs, so they'd just invite them to the group to decrease competition. When one person wanted to log off or do something other than questing, they would, and no feelings were hurt, and no debates had to happen. I think this type of system works very well, and you don't have to sit around trying to find a group or schedule your playtime when you are just wanting to level.

    If you happen to play at odd hours, then it's likely there will be no competition and you won't run into people, so the best way is to simply solo quest, and if you do run into someone you will just invite them on the fly, as opposed to pre-questing/adventuring/exploring.

    I don't think it's necessary to make it so you are always in a group or always not in a group, unless of course you're playing a support role throughout the whole levelling experience. In which case, it's really hard to make it so you have people to level with if you solely play at odd hours, and you'll probably end up developing a support/dps hybrid (as many will) for questing while solo. I don't think this is different from any other player with any other class though, that if they're playing at odd hours and often soloing, they will tend to slot some abilities for survival and some for damage.
  5. Zaelesis

    Zaelesis New Cupcake

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    Dont make it in any way require or discourage grouping, what im saying is that with the current information we have, there is little incentive to grouping beyond reducing competition. With the wow example, you did get an exp bonus for being in a group so it was not a direct split of exp.

    Just a couple of examples: Example 1: If player a kills a mob solo every 30 seconds for 100 exp, their base exp per hour would be 1200. If player a joined a group with player B, both killing the same number of mobs but spliting the exp evenly, the overall exp gained will not change. This does not encourage grouping for anything beyond reducing competition and in most cases, people wont bother grouping.

    Example 2: Similar to wow ( i dont have exact numbers, im sorry its been a long time since i datamined it) Using the same base sample of 1 mob every 30 seconds for 100 exp. Joining a second group would split the exp but give each player 60% of base instead of 50%. Which would result in a base increase in exp of 20%, giving an incentive to group beyond just reducing competition.

    Now here is where the difficulty comes in: In both examples, time is a constant. For the most efficient of grinders, this is a true fact, you will kill x mob every y seconds. However for most people this is not the case, and time tends to be in flux. This is where the aspect of grouping would come in and may prove to be better if example 1 is the type of exp split they are planning on. Using a full group would in theory include a tank and healer, which could possibly mean pulling more monsters or in the example given, stronger monsters.

    When using the stronger monster example, you have to factor in kill time to exp gain. Why group up to fight a stronger monster that will ultimately just make us take longer to kill something and complete the quest.

    TLDR; To find a healthy balance between solo play and group incentive is going to take a long time and be difficult. On one hand, if you have the rewards be equal but finding a group be easy, some people will flock to that. On the other, if the group does get a small visible benefit from working together (which in most mmos they do) more people will make the attempt to find others in hopes of gaining that bonus. The idea behind it is to have a benefit without making it too large to make solo play useless but at the same time not too small to trivialize the effort needed to find a group.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah I would agree with making higher level mobs give exponentially more quest completion %.
  7. Kliekie

    Kliekie New Cupcake

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    I wonder what kind of impact this new style of XP sharing it would have on boosting your lower level friends in dungeons while you are level capped. I remember from an interview a while back they said something like "If you want to boost your lower level friends trough dungeons that's fine, but you can also choose to adjust your own level to match theirs in the dungeon".
    Personally I like to boost friends once in a while, after leveling your 9th alt you couldn't be bothered with any more questing... But with this new system I have to say it looks pretty 'impossible' to boost. Yes off course the capped player can hit all the mobs once for aggro and let the lower levels do the rest, but that's not what I call boosting, it wouldn't be just as fast.
    I like the idea of getting a progression bar for your kill quests, but on the other hand people from the other faction will start killing your mobs and you will only get like 10% of the xp...
  8. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok. I have a weird pacing in terms of MMORPG's, sometimes staying up all night long playing and then not playing at all for a general while...With W* I really want to reach max. Level very fast, and that as a tank warrior...Welp, if it will take longer than if I used a DD setup, idgaf. It's how I want to level.

    Also...Socializing...Yeeeah uhm maybe? As I said, strange pacing and since I really want to be fast in the depth of the game and play a whole lot while a lot of people I know who're into this game aswell and can't wait to get their fingers on it just won't be able to keep up with me, making leveling unneccessarily harder for me.

    Also, what I got from the EXP share: Terrible decision if it is as Chrillin stated on Site one.
  9. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I 100% disagree. Competition is infinitely more engaging than cooperation imo.

    GW2 is very solid evidence that an open tagging system does not encourage grouping, people just stand next to each other and kill things; there is no communication, no teamwork etc. They may be "working together" in a technical sense, but the essence of group play is not there. People standing next to strangers is not "connectedness" or "community", its a minor, largely irrelevant twist on questing.

    Now to me, "community" develops in this case when you use a closed tagging system, and you are competing against fellow players for things in the world. This is healthy competition. And the community part? You form an actual group with players around you, to help kill your shared mobs, and to help increase your chances against other players in the area. That person you group with, and the friendship forged there under the fire of competition is where community building comes from.
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  10. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    I personally really don't understand why they don't simply use a dynamic spawn system - the more players, the more mobs - it's not rocket science. Could add mob aging to the equation, the longer they stay alive, the better chance of goodies - that would help deal with bots as well.

    And taggin while a great tool for griefing, also encourages grouping, actually communicating with random people while you use it - we have a no-tag fest in GW2, and considering the game has a fairly healthy population it feels incredibly lonely. People have no incentive to stop and chat/group not counting huge events, though even then, it's group, no talk at all. Heh...

    Im really disapointed with their decision to turn 180 degrees on that one. Improve the tag system - sure, get rid of it, no. Wow's had 10+millions players with competitive tagging - it was fine. Also, it mainly affects PVE servers, if you're naughty on a pvp one you get ganked, over, and over, and over again until you get the message ;)

    In my humble opinion, any design that removes even one incentive for socializing in an mmo is bad, very, very bad :(

    Here comes my first major WS disapointment.
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  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    There still is competition for the most damage done, and if someone comes along and starts killing the thing you're killing you have to do more damage to get a higher % of completion. It really comes down to how hard the mobs are to kill. If the mobs are actually challenging in themselves, competition isn't as important. In most games killing mobs is a monotonous task, and having another player there racing around to each mob makes it more fun. But, if the mobs are already hard to kill and fun to fight on their own, competition means you are more likely to rush to a mob and make a mistake, so it means the devs have to decrease the overall difficulty of the mobs.

    Also, WoW currently has a closed tagging system (first hit gets the kill) and no communication is made there either. That is because the mobs are regularly soloable, and the groups (again) are simply formed to decrease competition.

    I think the real community is built when the players feel like its everyone versus the worlds. So, making mob fights interesting and hard will increase teamwork that is necessary, in which players will learn to work as a team or die a lot.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Although a tagging system doesn't create communication either. WoW has a first shot tags the mob system, and when you get into a group you still just fight alongside each other and get frustrated when yet another group comes in and is tagging things before you. You still don't talk to your team-mates because everyone's doing solo content along side each other.

    I think the difficulty of the mobs will instead have to create the community.
  13. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    It doesn't created, but it encourages it. Guess our views depends on personal experience. I've made more friends in early days of WoW, then in Cata+ plus all the other games combined since then. I honestly don't remember being frustrated when grouping that another group gets in my way. Maybe I was that lucky. Maybe I'm clinging too much to the feeling that mmos had in the old days, and simply want it back. To me it's not a single player game, it's not meant to be, it has individual elements to it, but it's most of all a social experience, and anything that negatively impacts that, makes it so much less worthwhile.

    Where to you draw the 'convenience' line? Once you start, some people instantly want more, and before you know it, you've lost the idea that you had originally - to try to encourage building a strong community in every possible way.

    Companies seem to wonder why player retention nowadays is so poor - but not many are willing to actually deal with it, instead, continue feeding that part of the gamer population, that wants fast/easy access to everything with minimal interaction with their fellow gamers, god forbid any obstacles on their way.

    Or it's quite possible, that I should just quit whining, come to terms with the fact that at the age of nearly 40 I'm noone's target audience gaming wise, and join a bridge club and make cookies in my spare time, maybe even take on knitting ;)
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  14. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Think of it like this... Instead of loosing a kill you just loose the majority of the xp gain from killing the mob when someone comes along and snags it.

    Named mob kills in Tera were bad because of this mechanic. Lines would form because of greifing. Not to much fun.

    To the first thing I said though... It really comes down to a dps race as well. The way that Carbine is describing it (from what I can tell) is that if you are not grouped as a lower dps class (healer / tank) people that are "helping" from outside will end up getting a lot of your xp gains from kills.

    Two things.... LAS will help to a certain degree.... It will not however completely close the dps gap due to people having to gear for a support role. Chips and the like. Disclaimer: I do not expect to have equal damage output as a tank / healer that a dps has, that would be silly.;)

    The other... Depending on how it's done it is possible that this will create a dynamic that pushes support classes into grouping while a pure dps will not have to. My main issue is two fold. That at end game you will have a even larger shortage of tanks / healers than we experience now in most mmo's. To say it can not happen is naive. Tera (which had a no tagging system similar to what is proposed by Carbine) was awful. The people (not all obviously) that stayed in support roles had an air of entitlement because of the shortage. They did take advantage.

    The other is simply creating two sets of rules for leveling... One for dps another for support roles. IMO it is bad game design.
  15. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have absolutely no issue with grouping. Sharing xp gains for kills in a group is fine. Woot for social interaction in an mmo.

    The issue become relevant when you are not grouped. Example: Someone running a tank / healer spec is questing. A DPS comes along and "helps" they quickly out damage the tank / healer. DPS walks away with the lions share of xp.

    Carbine has stated several times they want players to play how they wish. I am afraid this creates a dynamic ( even stated by Carbine on WW) that urges grouping almost to a necessity for support classes. If support needs to and dps doesn't it creates an imbalance in game-play.

    Several potential problems can arrive due to this. Read a few other posts on this issue and maybe you will agree. I don't want to retype them all because it seems to be becoming spammy from my side. :)

    Greifing is another concern.... Not so much on regular quest mobs but, It can get bad on named npc kills.
  16. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Greifing isn't my main concern although I do think it has a potential for abuse. I have seen it firsthand.

    As far as the rest goes... There are quite a few folks that share your thoughts as well. Myself included.
  17. Sonntam

    Sonntam Cupcake-About-Town

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    You recognize that there are no support classes in the game right now, right? You can build a support character, but equally you can easily switch out to a more damage based playstyle by switching out your abilities.

    Plus, as a support character you'll level very slowly alone in any system, since it takes you so long to kill mobs. With this system it's just that the other player can "steal" your experience, but if there are too many people in the zone than people will compete over mobs either way. And then the logical route would be to group up regardless whether you are a support class or not.
  18. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Although I disagree with your assessment that there are no "support classes" I have conceded several times that LAS if implemented properly could reduce a large portion of the problem and I thank you and everyone that has brought that fact to my attention.

    If everyone played the same way it would be easy.

    Yes of course I realize that leveling as a tank / healer is slower. And your logic is sound.... group away. Personally I like to level as my intended class / spec. Call me crazy but, I always have. No biggie though. I will suffer this self imposed difficulty quietly.

    I read Carbine's statement from WW. The problem with their intended design is that it pushes lower dps classes (by their own admission) into grouping whether we refer to them as support classes or not.

    I think this will make it harder to level a tank / healer by giving more xp gain to an outside dps class. It will favor burst damage. Even if folks are trying to help and not grief it will slow a tank / healers xp gains.

    Basically it just adds a step to level a tank / healer that a dps doesn't have to deal with. Is it a huge deal? If Carbine implements it poorly like in Tera it could be. Dealing with a severe shortage of tanks and healers at max lvl is not to much fun.

    Your mileage may vary. :up:
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  19. Segretezza

    Segretezza New Cupcake

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    Sorry I can't sift through 200+ of posts to see if this was already covered, so I apologize if it was already discussed.

    My main concern with this new system is this:

    I am a completionist, always have been...so if I missed a low level quest at one point and I go back with a higher level character...won't that mean I get a really low amount of exp from a quest mob? Wouldn't that in turn cause the quest to become the ridiculous grind of a lifetime? Say if the quest requires you to get 100 exp, at the same level as the quest you get 10 per mob you kill. Now suppose you are ridiculously out leveled for the quest and you now get 1 exp for the same mob. Your quest went from killing 10 to 100.

    Maybe they will keep the exp gain from each mob the same no matter what level you are so there will be no problem in the end?

    Secondly, what's going to prevent people from opposite factions from just blowing up your quest mobs when you go after them? Yes tagging has it's downsides, but now with this new system if you do 1% of the damage and 99% is done by someone else who's there just to ruin your day, you'll be there forever questing. (this is a PVE realm example, most likely he'd just kill you on a PVP one.)

    Lastly, what's to stop people from just having your alts sit in your group and not do anything and still get exp? According to the new system, a support gains the same exp as the rest of the group, so does this mean if some random person who sits there and does nothing will get exp? If they say that they support HAS to actually do something to get the exp, then we have another problem. I've been in many MMO fights that didn't get out of hand that didn't require a heal or CC.

    Idk, maybe I'm just worrying about silly <REDACTED>. But I played EQ and they had a damage done to the mob system and it was annoying when you where sitting there for ages and did 49% and he/she did 51% and got the drops. *shrug*

    You want people to group? Make the damn game hard, and have people lose exp on death. Unite as one, or perish to a low level boar forever. In EQ you couldn't do a thing solo (unless you were a Druid or Shaman or a twink) and it created a need for groups.
  20. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not something I had thought of and I don't wish to speculate but, I'm sure they can do something pretty simple to avoid this.

    Put this into greifing concerns in this thread. Some people say it's no big deal. I tend to agree with your thought. I saw it first hand in Tera and it was super annoying and not fun.

    I think the idea is to put damage/ maybe heal? thresholds in place so that unless you are at least active during an encounter you will receive nothing. Just a guess really though. Boxing is not something I had thought of.

    To the second part of this paragraph... Gotta read some of my and others threads on this possible issue. And of course the counter ideas as well.

    I think they have pretty good handle on this. All folks involved in a kill will receive completion (their portion anyway) -loot.



    I hope not..... I don't have a problem with grouping for quests if necessary. It can be a lot of fun meeting new folks and developing alliances. I do want to be able to leave my house / city and actually complete content on my own as well though.:)

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