Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Yakzan, Aug 19, 2013.
There are always going to be some people who will complain about not getting everything for free.
I guess a subscription model is not that bad, but it is true that there's a lot of competition out there in the MMO area, most of them F2P and some of them are really good games. If Carbine want this subs mode to work out they need to make this game amazing. Otherwise the game will end like any other game released couple years ago, that started with subscription model and are now based in microtransactions.
I dont mind paying a monthly fee for this game as long as it's worth it.
Referencing a relevant post from Carbine that puts to rest the questions about if CREDD via in-game gold has a player power vector with a resounding "yes".
The only qualifiers offered are that gold bought item availability is double (or triple) gated and not a direct purchase (rep grinds + craftables put up for sale by other players mentioned).
However I don't think any person can argue - with what we've been told at this point - that CREDD creates a fast lane to gearing up (among other things) so that extra cash (on top of subscription) -> power, cash -> time.
A cash shop experience with pay to win elements.
We should really stop discussing this payment model as P2P or subscription (I would be fine paying a sub to access content on a level playing field with everyone else, despite it's not my preferred model, it's near the top)
It is sub + cash shop with a 'play to pay' side-effect... since the bottom tier of players is entirely constrained by the amount of CREDD offered.
If there's 10 CREDD on the CX when 11+ players gametime expires someone(s) will get left out, end of story; like a musical chairs game.
In fact the only way to please the premium customers (sub + CREDD) is to always have more demand than supply so they keep buying CREDD without fear of not being able to sell it in-game.
The rest is marketing lingo, sleight of hand, word games meant to disguise a premium feature (sub + CREDD) by drawing attention to the side-effect ('play to pay').
If we were to draw a parallel, there's a bunch F2P games (eg. RIFT, SWTOR and others) that have a F2P base and an optional premium (sub). Depending the F2P implementation the F2P part is more or less restrictive (in RIFT you can enjoy 99% of the game and not pay a dime or do some one-off permanent purchases to remove some restrictions, in SWTOR the balance tips more in favor of the 'optional' sub to get access to all the content).
What Carbine has described sofar is shifting that paradigm up one rang. (from F2P -> optional sub, to P2P -> premium)
So WildStar is shaping up to be a P2P game with a premium feature P2P + CREDD where in contrast to the previous examples there's not even a cap on the premium feature.
'Play to Pay' is just the misbegotten child of P2P + Cash Shop after a night of heavy drinking and no protection.
At first I was upset about the subscription but I saw a post from gamespot here making a valid point about the drawbacks of Free to Play games take a common practice of tanking or are the remains of a pay to play game taking (Aion anybody?) and learning somewhere (don't remember if it was on this article) but it took like 300 people to make this to make sure it's worth it I will do what it takes to show my patronage, and the fact the same time it comes out is about the same time my household will have a major financial burden lifted
I had the biggest smile on my face when I saw this model. I absolutely hated how previous MMOs I played became free to play and the quality of players drastically fell so low to outright quitting x_x Not to mention the Brazilian invasions with every F2P game.
100% supporting this payment model! *bow*
I understand your concerns, but according to Paypal, the only thing different in Argentina, is the lack of the ability to exchange currency, and limited domestic transactions to address the above issue - imposed by your government, sadly. However, you can still use Paypal for international payments in over 190 countries.
Yeah it sucks living not in US/EU regions - I'm from Poland, spent most of my life in the Middle East, and had to 'exercise' a lot to bypass loads of restrictions to get game clients/consoles/region locked games/dvds, you name it lol. Doubt there is a game publisher that willingly skips a market, I'm sure they'd love to sell everything to as wide an audience as possible, but it's not always feasible due to different laws/business obstacles/censorship etc.
Internet however, is a wonderful thing, communities like that one, bigger or smaller can come in very handy and while noone will sort the income issue for you, there are ways to get around buying what you need to buy via non official avenues
I also somehow doubt there is a conspiracy theory behind latency I've played WoW for 2 years on a poor 3g connection in Kuwait and it sucked, I moved to a different area, closer to a tower, and bam, half the lag gone
There always going to be some people who like to make broad assumptions and throw out insults instead of actually looking at the facts
P2P is an Archaic system..alone at least offering it as a option is a good idea until people get used to the idea that its old hat games like Dungeons and Dragons Online, Star Wars The Old Republic, Aion, Rift, Tera Rising, Star Trek Online, Dragon Saga, Smite, League of Legends, Vindictus, Continent of Nine Seal, Perfect/Forsaken World, Runes of Magic, Eden Eternal, Lord of the Rings Online, Runescape, Maplestory, RaiderZ, DC Universe Online, Guild Wars 2, Dragon Nest, Allods, Luna Online, Age of Wushu, Neverwinter Online, Elsword and many MANY more have shown the F2p or B2p + Expansions style of payment has no issue making the companies a steady stream of income and usually obliterate any direct P2P competition. Now I'm not saying I love all these games in fact I only enjoy a few of them but I'm very picky...I'm just saying every MMO listed here is currently very popular amongst the gaming community...at least the community that has learned F2P =/= Bad and P2p =/= Good.
Even the Monolith WoW is starting to plummet in its active player base.
Point is I know alot of people from these forums, out of my IRL friends, from the forums of various games I play who Carbine will not see a cent from....going a Hybrid P2p/F2p or P2p/B2p + Expansions (I prefer the latter) would have satisfied everyone and greatly increased their player base...this CREDD system is a joke and a trap.
I'll continue to roam these forums and the wildstar official site for when Carbine inevitably announces that their going F2P..for their sake I hope they come to their senses before game launch.
I like your post but feel the need to clarify it's not because I'm a proponent of F2P, I am not.
I've argued against it and more so against a shift to F2P down the road under the stigma of failure to support P2P.
As a matter of fact I'd prefer a 'honest' P2P model or a B2P/P2P hybrid like I've described at the bottom of my very lengthy post.
But; you point out correctly that what's been presented, is not P2P and it's most definitely not a P2P + F2P hybrid.
Instead it's a P2P + Cash Shop hybrid (ie the worst kind of combination available on the market nowadays)
Or to put it another way it's a "base subscription" to access the game + "premium subscription" (CREDD) to have the best gaming experience possible.
Add on top of that due to the specific 'hybrid' implementation of the cash shop/premium features selected we don't even know where the premium caps; in that it's essentially open-ended.
Both from the top (we don't know what game systems cost how much plat/gold) and the bottom (we don't know where the CX gold market for CREDD will stabilize so how much gold a premium subscriber will be getting for their CREDD).
It's also rather obvious that the premium features are aimed squarely at 2 segments:
- the hardcores/competitive players looking for any edge to progress faster
- the 'gimmenow' crowd that's often mislabeled as 'casual'.
It's definitely not aimed at casual playstyle. What does a player with a casual schedule care if they get their mount now or in a month if they're having fun. The inference is that normal play is not entertaining so even as a casual you need to whip out the ole mighty credit card to remove annoyances and get to the good bits.
P2P is an Archaic system.. ? No its not, if a game is worthy and brings out new content all the time or keeps my attention and is great to play then take my money, give me new stuff all the time and i'm happy. But you have different types of games listed there, you can't compare a mmo to a moba. MMOs offer so much more content then a moba.
As for WOW well a sub didn't kill it .. their player base would still be loyal but they made some bad choices for the game and its old, dated ..
SWTOR .. did you play it because it wasnt interesting enough to keep my attention, again i think they made some bad choices in the development and end game when it came out that turned people off.
DC universe- really, they tried to market to people that dont normally play mmo's and made bad choices in the making of it , its a first person shooter game, mmos are not normally first person shooter.
Rift is generic
you left out the Secret World that should still be a sub but for bad press before the games released and turned everyone off of playing it. Its a great game and I think people should give it a chance!
I could go on but the MMO's you listed aren't worth a monthly sub .. Have you seen all the content so far for Wildstar.. there is something for every type of game play even housing! They took a look and everything and are making a game that has so much to offer.
TSW was a great game till you hit the endgame. At launch they only had 3 "Nightmare" mode dungeons with a 16 hour lockout, and a ridiculous farm for signets (gear augments). They added more nightmare for all 8 dungeons, quests for signet farming, and a 5 minute, 1 boss, 10 man raid (Made world first kill within the first hour of it hitting live). They also ended up adding another raid, which was easier but took longer, although it was still another 1 boss, 10 minute, 10 man raid (5 manned it on the Test server). The Tokyo adventure zone was supposed to hit live in Q1 2013, it still has not hit live servers i believe.
I bought the lifetime subscription for TSW and unfortunately was not the game i was looking for. It was not worth the sub so it went b2p. I do not play TSW anymore cause I had all the max gear with all the epic signets I wanted and there was nothing compelling to make me keep playing. I quit shortly after they added the second "raid" which was after the B2P transition.
Wildstar looks like they will be hitting all of my needs for my MMO addiction. I will gladly buy a CE and will be subbing for 6 months for my first installment. I really hope they can provide compelling eldar game content so it does not fall into a B2P or F2P market with a cash shop.
I want the "good ole days" of a quality MMO I can sub to.
I have been watching the info on content, but I'm having a hard time believe there "is something for every type." Just yesterday, I found out adventures and dungeons are small group, and "shiphands" is leveling content. The whole thing hit me hard since I've been trying to find any real sign of what eldergame content I could look forward too as a soloer. I even hid a ._. emote in a response to a carbine dev...
I hope you're right. I just can't see it as things are now.
AH man I did forget to mention TSW and I did mention some non-RPGs but the majority were MMORRPGs
Nice post roadblock you broke down the issues with everything Wildstar is proposing and its just sad that no one will pay attention most of the people supporting P2P don't understand why their just comfortable with it and will likely just brush off or skip your entire post as "phbbt casual moron"
Anyways SWTOR I'm playing right now...I've played for a bit fully F2P enjoyed the more in-depth story and invited my friends...they've since enjoyed a steady stream from all but one of us who is crippled and can't work so is on a fixed income. Guess what I won;t play any game I can't play w/o him so P2P is out the window.
Now it's not only because of him..I play plenty of MMOs solo or just with my gamer girl and honestly any P2P game we've ever tried regardless of quality has felt like a chore to play...but we had to play to "get our moneys worth" so we always end up quitting now with F2P games if were really busy and don't get to play for a week we don't feel guilty but in the long run I've spent more money in SWTOR (playing 2 years) and DDO (playing almost 4 years) than a standard 15$ sub would have amounted to.
Why...because if I can't afford 15$ say in August I have to stop playing and every day I don't play dimishes my chances of coming back...in F2p or B2P+Expansion (again this is my preferred for me and the company) models its no biggie if I don't get paid until next week...I'll just be a little behind on the expansion content (or latest adventure pack/class/etc.) than when I do get paid I usually buy the "best deal" Space Creditz (or w/e the cash shop currency will be called in Wildstar)
So to review:
P2P game: Didn't have money for sub, stopped playing
B2p+Expansion Game: Played currently "owned" expansion for a week got paid dropped anywhere between 30 -100$ on points
Thats the beauty of F2P it brings in players and if your games good enough you'll make the same if not way more than a straight sub...it also encourages the devs to continue to make new, unique content for all players not just end-game raiders who believe the first 99% of the game is "practice" because if they don't people will just leave...subs will just keep subbing...no reason to experiment or take risks
F2p+ MTX or B2p+Expansions is better for the players and the developer...and again I say I'll be waiting for the announcement of WS going F2P or if they don't its cancellation.
Sidenote: A game being F2P or B2P does not instantly make it a bad game...the devs do. If you played the game for a month and loved it and suddenly carbine annoucned F2P would come out next weekend would the graphics start to turn muddy, 100s of bugs start spontaneously create themselves...towns and dungeons inexplicably melt and shrink...no, no they won't.
Sidenote2: I do see why some people prefer P2P...its a fire and forget mentality you just sign up for a ongoing sub and every month (or 3 months or 6 months or w/e) money comes out of your bank and you probably get to the point where you don't even notice. Hence why I think hybrids are the best idea...if at all possible you always want to offer as many options as possible to satisfy your customers...happy customers = happy developers (oh and offering a scam like CREDD is just asking for trouble your better not offering it at all)
That Makes sense? $100 is 6 month of sub or more if you buy in 6 month chunks. And for those 6 months you would have access to every single piece of content and not be gated or held back cause you did not buy an item or a key.
F2P brings in players, yes. It also brings many, many more Trolls, Gold Sellers, Bad players, Whiners, Ragers, and overall destroys communities. You are right that the devs will continue to make new content, but IMO it will be for the wrong reasons. They will have to offer something in the cash shop that gives you an advantage over others (EXP boosts, Gold Boosts, Items, Harvesting Boost) to make any good amount of money. People also love cosmetic items, but is it really worth it?
No. People who prefer P2P models are usually experienced with MMOs. Who know what they want out of a game, and have not been able to find one that offers what they want from a F2P game. Am i right guys? Also, If you are doing things right you should be checking your Bank/Credit Card statements whenever you get them (or hire someone to do this for you), or in this day and age you can go online and check your statements on the fly, even on your phone (which you pay $40+ a month for)!
CREDD a scam? I think CREDD is a great idea! In game cash shops are scams! Filled with junk that you do not need, or you might think you need, or stuff you do need. Lock box keys, like WTF? The people that have the time to play all day will be able to play monthly for free! That is awesome!
I like to put video games in to my entertainment budget. That goes along with movies, concerts, a night out with the girl friend or my buds. Lets just say I spent more for one night at the bar last week than buying Wildstar and subbing for 12 months would cost. Or one movie is worth a whole month of play time. If a concert is worth going to it is going to cost you a lot more than $15. (Most Likely you have heard all of these arguments before.... I wonder why?)
Does anyone reading this work for free? Do you offer services to others everyday, every week, every year just so that they might throw you $5 once or twice? Do you expect someone else to pay $200 so you can get a free ride? Bad Human, Bad!
Just so you know. The ONLY "AAA" MMO that has launched F2P was Neverwinter (2013). And i would not call that game "AAA".
Yes that's what I mean the company made alot more money than they would if it was just a sub and I CHOSE to spend 100$ when I felt like it and the sub game I had to stop playing because it DEMANDED 15$ or GTFO and got distracted with something else and didn't go back...thats the point.
Those things all appear in P2P games as well so stop trying to use it as a point against F2p or B2P games.
Thats a dev issue not a F2P issue and BTW Carbine studios has already said there's going to be a cash shop in their game so it being P2P didn't change that
Being hardcore or casual, experienced or not has nothing to do with P2p and F2p...P2P a good game does not make nor does F2P make a game bad.
Oh a fact good job...yes lock box keys are a terrible idea and I hate games that do it...but guess what only a FEW popular f2p games do it not to mention any experienced MMOer knows you can just ignore stuff like that...as far as CREDD it's been broken down into detail why CREDD I won't bother explaining again...I'll edit in a link to the explanation after I post this...might take me a while this is a big thread lol
Yesz I've heard them all before except their not valid facts...a movie theater I can go to whenever I want I don't have to buy a monthly pass for X$ and feel like I have to force myself to go to the movies X amount of times to be worth it...say X is equal to 10 movies. Now this would actually be a really cool idea (this perspective is as a consumer) for theaters to offer a "monthly pass" as an option because a small handful of people (ie. People who review movies for a living) go to movies alot and would actually be cheaper that way
Actually alot of people work for commission instead of a monthly or hourly rate or some hybrid of the 2 and no again your not listening I wholly plan to spend a bunch of money on any F2P game I play I just spend that money on MY terms when I want to not when the game decides its time to pay up...in the long run if the game is good (which plenty of F2P games are) I end up spending way more over a one year period than if I pay 15$...others would prefer the fire and forget 15$/month hence why a hybrid P2p/F2p or P2P/B2p+Expansions is the best option
Neverwinter is actually not that bad of a game even if it contains the dread "lockbox" which expereincing F2P MMOers know just to ignore, it's just DDO is a way better DnD MMO so if its specifically DnD your looking for NWO is not for you..if your looking for an Action MMO set in the WORLD of DnD with some wicked quest creation tools and a smorgishborg of special events tha NWO is for you.
What you seem to be saying here is that it's a better value for you to sub and get all the things. Maybe they are trying to help your pocket book rather than have you take a $100 hit every so often?
You are right. I did say that there would be more of them in F2P though.
Actually No, they did not say that there would be a cash shop. If they did I would appreciate a link.
Correct sir! That was not the point that I was making though. I was saying that most people who prefer P2P are wanting a higher quality product and all the things for a small monthly fee, like the good ole days.
It is a very valid reason. You only have a limited time to go see said movie at the theatre, so you are on their timeline and can not go see it "whenever you want", and it is still only about 2 hours of entertainment. If you want that food or drink at the bar you will have to pay for it before you leave. And i am guessing the concert you want to go see will not be there the next day so you do not have the option to go see it when ever you want. No matter which way you look at any of this you don't pay when you want, it's when they want you to pay for it, and when the services are rendered.
Some people do work on commission, but they get paid for the sale for the pay period after the consumer(s) makes their purchase. Not when their employer feels like it. If the employer pays them when he/she feels like it, and not as per their contract it is against the law. They still have to work for it, and do not do not offer their sales expertise for free.
You seem to be arguing for Carbine to take more of your money because you will feel better about it. Impulse spending is a guilty pleasure, but not necessarily a good thing. They are offering a quality product for a fair price. If you want to spend more money why don't you buy another copy and give it to a friend, buy them a couple months of subscription. It would be on your terms and you could pay when you want to!
What in this world do you buy, or when you get services rendered, say "I'll pay you when I want"? Nothing! Why should a company putting together a game that is costing them $250,000,000 plus give you their product for free? Stop demanding free stuff. Expect to pay when they want you to.
I am only trying to help here! Being greedy does nothing but hurt the world and the people around you.
I'm not being greedy I prefer to spend larger chunks of money when I feel/can afford it than be told to GTFO by a monthly sub. Also I never said you HAVE to spend more money I'm saying I tend to drop more money than if I paid a sub...and I don't want Carbine to protect my wallet...give me the option and I'll decide.
I'm also NOT saying they shouldn't offer a Sub option...so people prefer it and i can see why some people do but I don't...so the more option s you offer the better
The way you talk about P2P is like how prisoners with Stockholm syndrome talk about their captors.
Mechanically, the method for getting Credd is a cash shop. It works on the same basic principles, and cash shops can be done via the publisher/developer's website. However, Credd, on it's own, does not really fit with the spirit of a cash shop. That's why I don't normally refer to it as one.
Last I heard, carbine had not ruled out a future cash shop. That's about as close as it gets.
Valid? Sure. Weak? Yes.
For the about the same per month, I can get netflicks and amazon prime and have $60 leftover. There's always the potential for one or more services to out-value a single mmorpg. A ton of movies and shows, without the hassles of a movie theater, can qualify.
You do realize that's what the concept of a Volunteer is, right? Even ignoring that, not everything that has value has a monetary value attached to it. One could be getting small items, favors, or simply the ability to put it on a portfolio or resumé.
I don't think being Navi is a good idea.
Pretty much all business models have a downside to them. Disliking the downsides of a given model does not mean that model is a scam or inherently harmful. (That applies to failedlegend too.)
To clarify I didn't say P2P is a scam I said CREDD is a scam....I mean I doubt Carbine created it with scamming people in mind but the problem is the in-game price is set by the community not by the devs and thats NEVER a good idea with something like this...I could be wrong maybe the community will keep the prices at numbers that will actually allow most players to obtain it with a reasonable amount of play....but I doubt it EVERY player run economy like this I've ever seen in P2P game has crashed horribly due to either the prices skyrocketing to ridiculous levels or no one willing to sell them because no ones buys it and since CREDD costs than a month of sub its too much of a risk to just keep trying.
Which is why a hybrid system is most effective since people can pick and choose the downsides/upsides they prefer. Also to clairfy I prefer B2P+Expansions to F2P...a short trial (about 7 days) is pretty much required though so people can get a feel for the game before dropping 60+ dollars (plus any expansions)
My bad then. I must have misread.
Also, I'm not fond of this Credd setup either for many of the same reasons. It's not a deal breaker per se, but it is a big turn off.
Have you seen the absolute garbage that is Canadian Netflix? Not worth the $8 a month I pay for it and I might watch one movie on it in a two month span and it is usually something I have seen before. Lots of selection but nothing worth watching. Amazon Prime is not available in Canada. These are both entertainment services but where I live neither have the value or replayability of an interactive entertainment service such as an MMORPG. Also for the record a sub for Wildstar is only $15/month. I am not sure where you get that the cost of a one month sub for Netflix and Amazon Prime is $60 cheaper than $15/month. The box price? You do not pay that per month.
As you are aware volunteering does not pay the bills. Sure, it may be a nice bullet point on some document that MIGHT help you get a paying job. I could have been more clear in my original statement and said "does anyone do their day time job for free?".
If you want one of my free trial keys when the game goes live send me a message. Hopefully we will get 3 new codes each month and more people will hand them out to the Wildstar fans here that wish this game to be F2P so they can have a shot at it.
IMO I really do think that F2P and B2P MMOs do not have a subscription because they they do not offer enough quality entertainment to justify spending $15/month. I know people will disagree with me but I have been playing MMOs since their early days and have not found one quality B2P or F2P in the genre. Games that do end up changing their vision of the payment model were not worth the sub.
Carbine does seem to think it is worth the money, and I do as well. I could end up eating my words though.