Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by UKcheese, Jul 23, 2013.
Wow I did not expect this thread to become this popular...
Ya its unfortunate for the devs too because they pretty much have to create with those in mind, its a huge double edged sword for them, which is why I think they should include some of those ideas from older MMO's here and there where possible. It obviously can't work in every element of the game or situation, but they should take advantage of it if there is the opportunity.
That recipe idea was just a spur of the moment thought, but I hope they put something like that in here at some point, not only for the hunt aspect but it could also be a big boost to the crafters just with the ingredients.
maybe they know more than I do about how to stop sites like this from being so useful .. ok they definitely do .. but imo .. you can't design out human nature. people will figure out a way to "cheat"
ZAM (hosts Wowhead, Torhead, Guildhead, etc) will create one. It allows them to reuse a large amount of their code to make a feature that will draw people to it. In any profession, it pays off to be one of the first out of the gate. If you come by later, there needs to be a Large Feature to cause people to stray from what they were using in the past (Thottbot to WoWHead, just worked out that Thottbot sucked at security). I would not be surprised if they are already have an addon created for ingame to allow for more accurate statistics.
Hi everybody and welcome to Luck McNoob's school of debating on the internet!
Lesson 1: Take a look around in the thread. Are your posts always the longest? Then you are doing something wrong! Keep it simple!
Lesson 2: Don't demand that others read long articles on other websites in order to understand your arguments.
Lesson 3: Attack arguments, not the person making them.
Congrats you now have Lucker McNoob's seal of approval. Have fun on the intrawebz kktnxbb.
And no, of course it's not cheating to search for information. Just like it's not cheating to read a book to study for a test.
Except a test tells you generally what is on it. Instead of games teaching you things and then you applying that knowledge on a test, the internet has made all tests open book.
If you need awesomite to craft swords you can:
A) Wander out in the wilderness for hours trying to find the minerals randomly
B) Educate yourself on the internet so you know where to look
Any choice is just fine, but cheating? I think cheating is more like you break game mechanics and make a script that gather the minerals for you.
"I cheat because I’m lazy and my time is too important to run around a zone for 2 hours to look for one single mob. Is that a problem with me, the zone, or the quest?"
It’s a problem with you, because it means you picked the wrong game.
It’s a problem with the zone, because it wasn’t designed to make the process of finding the mob interesting.
It’s a problem with the quest, because it isn’t a well-designed quest — “find the mob” should be an interesting puzzle.
The entire problem with your statement is that education should be coming from the game. You should be learning for yourself where the best place to go farm ore is, not looking it up online. That is the entire point. You do not like something so you feel justified in skipping it. That is breaking the rules of the game by skipping that education.
In most cases I think it's a bit of both. Looking up stuff and learning within the game, I mean. When I was farming for rare pets in WoW I got the basic knowledge of the locations from the internet, but learned the best spots through experience.
And I still would not call it cheating, and I very much resent Ralph's "you are in the wrong game because you don't play the way I want you to play"-argument.
So how is going outside the game for other things, like rmt, any different? Knowledge is knowledge (and some say knowledge is power!). Where and how you acquire it is determined by the game. You do not care about the journey of acquiring the pet, just the getting of the pet itself, so you feel perfectly justified in going outside the bounds of the game to acquire it. Why is knowledge ok to go outside the game for, but not gear?
Except that is not his argument. If you are not having fun, and need to go outside of the rules to have fun, then it is not the game for you. The real problem becomes when players feel entitled enough to demand the game gets changed because by golly they paid for the game and they should be allowed to have fun however they please.
I rarely agree with Livingthedream, but I have to agree here; Why in earth do you start a thread of a subject if you have already made up your mind? Do you need some pats on your back from people who think the same way you do, in order to feel good?
I do look at WoWhead as a cheating but Wildstar will have similiar site, there is no question about it. My personal opinion is that if a game represents you a puzzle, this puzzle is meant for you to solve. Checking WOWhead for how to solve the puzzle is just the same as if you'd play a singleplayer game with a walktrough guide on your lap.You are not playing the game your self, you are just doing what you are told to do and in my opinion that kinda counters the whole idea of playing.
I do understand tho that many people absolutelly hate questing and want to play the game only for it's endgame content and that is completelly fine for me. Still you can not say that alt tabbing out of the game and spending more time in the wowhead than in the game is something that game developers wanted you to do. This is the reason Carbine said that they will try to use as many random elements in their quests so that people can not read walktroughs or Wowheadesque sites for their content, because they do not want you to do so.
I do not mind a item database for equipable items such as weapons and armors. As long I play the game as I am suposed to, I do not mind to check which quest gives me a new chest armor or which boss drops me a new weapon. I am already completing the game and meeting the challenges represented to me by the developement team, so I do not see a problem with knowing your "sallary" beforehand.
Uh oh, your graphic has the word cheated in it, clearly its just clever use of game mechanics!
Wow this is pretty deep.
According to wikipedia's definition of cheating and morality, seeing something as cheating or not relies on your notion of right and wrong. The question becomes more ethical now : is using databases right or wrong ? Ethical debates are annoying and long, I know that from personal experience (there is a lot of debating in the french education system^^)
I did not want to get into an ethical debate, thus the agree to disagree part. He answered by claiming my opinion was made in ignorance.
I made this post to know the people's opinion and to regard the idea of actually designing it.
I'm trying to make myself as clear as possible but it's pretty hard sometimes as English is my third language, so sorry if you don't understand.
I really don't see the difference between going to a database and getting info or asking somebody "How did you do/get X/Y"? It still comes down to somebody else making information available to you.
With statements like this "I was trying to say that the fact that I don't know much about gaming history and game design does not make me ignorant." and "I am trying to make you admit that calling me ignorant was misplaced. " it makes communicating with you at all incredibly difficult. Yes, thats from a pm, no I am tired of telling you why you are wrong in pm's.
There is nothing ethical involved. The rules of the game are whatever the designer chooses them to be. If you go outside those rules to achieve your goal you have cheated. It is that simple. Whether you think that going outside those rules is justified or not is immaterial. But but its annoying/time consuming/hard!!!! It does not matter. It is still cheating. The only difference is peer pressure no longer inflicts shame for cheating.
I can't help you with that, I wish I spoke English better.
And why won't you continue the conversation in pm? You didn't answer my last one and I would like an answer. This thread is not the place to finish the conversation we started.
Does writing it in this way make you understand ?
I was trying to say that :
the fact that I don't know much about gaming history and game design
does not make me ignorant.
With just a little effort you can understand the sentence.
But how do you determine if gathering information from a external source is within the rules or not?
Taking GW for example - they often promoted the wiki site and even had a /wiki command that you could use to search items that took you directly to it's wiki page (if it existed). So unless they specifically say they don't want people to use third-party sources but can't really stop them, it's hard to tell what counts as "outside the rules".
You state yourself that Gw2 directs you to those resources. Many companies like Blizzard have taken those resources and added them to their game. The rules in general are fairly clear cut. There is a reason why I made the obvious joke about clever use of game mechanics earlier. Many of those things have been done entirely because they can't stop them, so its become a case of "if you can't beat em, join em".
And really, this is all "ok" as what is considered socially acceptable does change. I just think its kinda funny how quickly people forget. Remember when LoL was launching, and the fact that it was free was such an awesome new thing? How this "pay as you go" business model was so much better than the box price? I mean even 5 years ago rmt was getting its teeth kicked in. The invasive business model from the east was held in about as popular opinion as Comunism was during the 50's. Look at today you have actual debates about it. Give it another 5, 10 years and it will be fully accepted aswell.
Zam is already reporting on the game and i think they own the *head.com sites if i'm not mistaken so i'm pretty sure it will happen.
Such elitism in this thread. Makes me want to off myself.
The problem here is both parties in this thread are assuming what they believe to be fact. The "fact" is, is that whether or not this is cheating is your opinion, and nothing more. It does not matter if some person you hold in high regard says this is cheating, because that too is his opinion that he mistakenly calls a fact.
You can argue all day for or against it, because in the end, what is cheating is subjective.
Jeremy said they're against walkthroughs, but not strategy guides. What's the difference? A walkthrough is a 12 step program to victory, whereas a strategy guide is a bunch of hints, tips and tricks to whatever it is your doing, but does not hold your hand through it all.